on Creative Assemblies, The Spark Podcast, our mission is to amplify Nashville’s diverse creative voices, foster growth through shared journeys, and inspire a city that thrives on collaboration.And now, here’s The Spark.Welcome back to The Spark.I’m your host, Mark Scrivener, and today I’m joined by a good friend, Michael Epps Utley, CEO of GoEpps, a digital marketing firm here in Nashville.When we first met, Michael, though, I thought of you as the leading authority in search marketing in the city of Nashville.I know your firm has innovated throughout the years, and you probably pivoted multiple times.And really looking forward to hearing your journey and, uh- Yeahyour story, and thanks for being on the show today.Yeah, yeah.Thanks as always, and great to be back in the space.It’s beautiful.And yeah, ex- excited to see, the, the podcast studio is awesome for people who haven’t seen it, but yeah, glad to be here.Thanks, Mark.Well, man, thank you.Yeah.We’ve, uh, you know, we’ve had a lot of great people on, but man, I’ve been looking forward to this episode, uh, and hearing your story.We’ve known each other for a long time now, you being an East Nashvillian and- Mm-hmmuh, an agency owner and, um, so maybe, maybe to lead us off today, maybe if you could just take people through your journey, I think that’d be a helpful start.Yeah, yeah.Digital marketing, uh, I was a liberal arts type person, uh, got a degree in creative writing and came to, uh, Vanderbilt, picked up a master’s in history from the Divinity School.And my passion was content, ideas, and, uh, decided during that program that, uh, grad school and getting a PhD in history wasn’t, uh, what I should do next.I was more interested in business, and I thought, “I’m gonna go do that.”And, uh, yeah, so I, I kinda came at it from the content and publishing side.And so, uh, choosing between Vanderbilt or Princeton, stayed in, uh, came to Nashville to Vanderbilt, uh, because the publishing industry was here at the time.There used to be, uh, quite a bit of activity around publishing in Nashville.Not just music, but books, and, uh, uh, particularly sort of religious or Christian publishing, and so I was oriented to that.Came to Nashville.My wife and I came here in ’96, and now we’re right up the street.Uh, we’re just a few doors down from my house, which is amazing that we’re just right here.Mm-hmm.But, uh, yeah, living in East Nashville is special.Uh, but yeah, over, over the course of a career, early career in publishing, I had this ache to start my own thing, and it just wouldn’t go away.And so I worked for other people, other companies for a few years, advanced, did well, and, uh, then eventually decided I’m gonna start my own business.And, uh, that was sort of the beginning of the end, you know?Yeah.It’s like once you, if you’ve kinda got the entrepreneurial bug, it’s kind of, you know, it’s a challenge.You don’t know what to do with that.But yeah, raised, uh, my wife Tracy and I raised 4 boys here in East Nashville and, uh, they all came through Stratford High School right here down the street.Mm-hmm.And, um, yeah, a lot of ups and downs over the years, but essentially, uh, 14 years ago started GoEpps and ha- that’s what I’ve been doing since then.And, uh, yeah, it’s, you know, like any business-it’s a journey, but it’s, it’s been great and it’s, uh, crazy to see Nashville grow and change.Uh, and our boys are all gone.They’ve all left.Uh, we’ve got one in Texas, um, getting a PhD in chemistry, one in Chicago, uh, going into, uh, pre-med, or he’s in pr- he just finished some coursework at Northwestern.He’s applying to med schools.We got one who last week, uh, moved out to Utah, uh, to start his, uh, professional career, wildlife and fisheries, working with the state there.And a freshman, uh, just finished up a first year at UT and had a great first year.But East Nashville’s a special place, and Nashville’s special, and being part of digital marketing through that journey of raising a family and being an entrepreneur, it’s been just a wild ride.Yeah.Yeah.Well, I, um, you know, being over here, I know your boys were also, some of them, uh, if not all of them, were involved in triathlons.Yeah.Uh, and I think you led a big, uh, or you were a part of a big organization.My daughter was, she went and trained with, uh, with the folks and I don’t know if she could keep up.Uh, back then.There were a lot of really good athletes and- YeahI think your, your boys were some of those.Yes.Yeah, we, uh, when we came back, my wife did something really smart.We were homeschooling and she, uh, she wanted to kinda get a plan set for Nashville, and so we con- she connected with Jen Gentry, uh, who was starting something called AERO.And before you knew it, I was emceeing in a, uh, a live triathlon down at Centennial Sportsplex- Mmwith roads closed and police and everything.It was amazing.And, uh, yeah, that, I think that was part of what was exciting about Nashville at that time.We had been up in the DC area for a few years, and we moved back to Nashville and, uh, so joined AERO and, uh, it was amazing.And then also, uh, Mark Miller and Dwayne Stevenson and those folks and what they did with East Nasty, which I think you- Mm-hmmhave been very involved in.Is that right?Yeah.Yeah.It was a big part of, uh- I, I think it’s been transformative for you.Yeah.Yeah.So it was exciting to see that.Our boys interned, uh, with Mark and, and Dwayne and were interns of East Nasty.Wow.But kinda part of the fun of East Nashville, and I don’t know, you, you’ve lived here.It feels like a community.Mm-hmm.And that’s different, and I think that’s important for business, too.Yeah.I, I think we kinda lose that along the way, but East Nashville’s special.Well, I’ve, uh, always been very impressed with GoApps and all the work you’re doing, and every time we’ve talked it’s, man, you’re working on some really cool things.But take us back to the early days, like when you launched GoApps, what was the idea behind it?Was it that content?Was it the writing?What, what was the vision behind what you wanted to create?It was close to the writing, but it wasn’t that.I, I was actually inspired by something I saw my father do, that it took meuh, I’ve spent my life trying to understand it.Um, he was an attorney, uh, but he had worked on the moon missions with Boeing.Wow.And so the way my parents met was the Space Race.Uh, the Epps boys were all engineers, and the girls in the family, uh, y- they were all pilots and engineers because my grandfather on that side was an early aviator.Think, like, Wright brothers era.Mm-hmm.Uh, he was sort of a collaborator and he knew the Wright brothers, they knew him.Uh, they considered him the first aviator of the South, and so that was Athens, Georgia.My father and his brother were lawyers, uh, going through law school, coming out of West Tennessee, and both groups heard the government’s hiring, and so they converged on Huntsville to put a man on the moon, and, uh, that’s where my parents met.But my dad’s real desire was to start his own law firm, but he got this exposure with engineers, and he, he worked with Boeing and they moved him out to Seattle, and he was exposed to systems thinking.And for a, a young man from Medina, Tennessee, that was- Hmmmind-blowing, and he, he was totally inspired by it.And so their dream was to build their l- law firm, and they relocated from Seattle to West Tennessee, where I grew up and was born and grew up.And my dad did something.He, he had a building and he, he created a situation.He wanted to find an area of the law that was scalable, and it was bankruptcy law, so it was basically farmers who’d had a heart attack.Hmm.And, uh, I worked there when I was 16 and up to 18.It was the first job and it was a great place.But early on, he said, “I’m gonna figure out a way to kind of retroactively understand what this is and what sorta system this is, and I’m gonna systematize this.”And he created a, a routine where someone could walk in the building and go around the loop and check in all their paperwork, and then meet the lawyer and be told everything’s- Hmmgonna be okay, and then submit the case electronically to the courthouse.And this was in 1986, pre-internet.So there were 2 phone lines into the courthouse, and one was Lloyd Atley’s printer.And, uh, I grew up seeing that, and he, he had set up a mainframe software system.And as I was working for other people, companies like LifeWay and Magazines.com and others, I was thinking, “What is the set, what is the, the area of the law that I could systematize?”And I started to get my head around, okay, digital marketing is made up of channels.You know, this was ’98, ’99- Yeahthat we started building websites for fun and for friends.And, uh, yeah, that desire, that kind of innate desire to replicate something was what I was looking at, and it was what I’d seen my father do that was so innovative.That was the spark that made me say, “I want to create a system where I can scale out digital marketing services.”Yeah.And that became, I don’t know, a milliondollar business.Wow.So there you go.What, um, th- that’s interesting.What was the first website that you built?What platform was it on?Oh, please pull it up.Platform, you think there was a platform?Please everybody look up right now, wettipgasmeter.com.I keep it live because I never want it to go away, but also it’s just an active client, uh, from 27 years ago.I charged Dr. Spiess at Vanderbilt University $500 to build a website for his invention- Hmmthe wet-tip gas meter.It was pre content management system.Still is.Super good PageSpeed score, uh, because there’s no other code.It’s just the HTML that I wrote by hand.Wow.And it’s still out there.It’s uhI don’t know if it’s mobile friendly.That’s a good question.I need to check.But yeah.Uh, yeah, it’s been hosted ever since then.And, uh, I, I think whenever that website’s ready to retire, I’m not gonna retire it.I’m just gonna keep it there somehow.Yeah.Sounds like a sales opportunity.You could go back and get another 500 bucks to make it mobile friendly now.I, yeah, that’s right.I need, I need to get an upsell on that.It’ll cost you- That’s right2,000 to- Yeahmake him a $500 upgrade, so.That’s right.In 27 years, there’s been one request to make an edit, and that’s it.Really?Yeah.Yeah.Man.It was the first project, yeah.Those early days, they’re uhI mean, I remember the early days of Snapshot, and we did 4 videos for $400.That was our first project- Can you believe it?you know, and now today, look at, look at both of us, so.Yeah.It’s been great to see your journey.And I guess, you know, as you’ve gone through the years, I mean, I’ve seen multiple pivots.I’ve met with you on things that were really innovative, really like, you know, really great products that you were building out.Maybe talk about some of those, how you, in the early days, some of those pivots that you made and how you pivoted into search marketing and kind of where you’re at today.Yeah, yeah.We’re, we’re excited.Right now, we’re rolling out AEO by GoApps.So, uh, we’re gonna have 2 flavors of it, Compete and Cohort, and it’s a, um, it’s a dashboard for seeing how a company’s doing in AI search results compared to others.And, uh, we’ve just built this in the last, uh, few months, but it’s been a project we’ve been working on for a couple of years.Wow.We reallyIt took a while for us to see the technology catch up to where we needed it to be.All the hype and the, you know, everything that’s been exciting about LLMs and agentic AI has been promising but not quite there until very, very recently.And so even though we’ve been chewing on this and putting it together for a couple of years, we weren’t able until about 2 months ago to get the right results out of, uh, using essentially the highest available level of Claude.Yeah.And so that was the processing power breakthrough that we needed for this to be valuable, and so that’s something we’re working on.Yeah, I think, um, what’s been exciting for us over the years is building our own tools and streamlining.Uh, we had our own task management system.We eventually switched out to Basecamp- Hmmrather than maintain something separate.Uh, a good, uh, standard operating procedures, um, interface.So building these kind of web-based tools has been a part of what we’ve been doing, uh, the whole way through.And I think if I had any advice for agencies or anything, it would be if you’re not spending about 25% of your time on something to innovate and to learn and to grow, you’re probably gonna fall behind.And with the pace of change now, I think that’s just more true than ever.Yeah.And so yeah, that’s, I think that’s been, um, it’s always been sort of that instinct to stay organized, but replicate and sort of create a systematic approach.I think that’s continued for us.And the way that looks in 2026 is, hey, we think these AI tools are not gonna go away, and- Hmmand, uh, while there’s good use of it and bad use of it in our agency world, uh, we can certainly test it and understand it, and we finally got the results that made it valuable.Yeah.So we’re excited about it now.Yeah.You know, I know our team is gonna meet with you and, and learn more about this tool, so we’re excited about it, and it is all the rage.Maybe, uh, if you could, maybe talk about it a little bit more about what you’re seeing these days because, you know, you see all these articles that are, you know, just, uh, you know, they’re out there of like, “SEO’s dead.”Yeah.And now it’s all the LLMs and AEO and GEO and, you know, all the acronyms.So what are you seeing?Like, what are you seeing today?What are you advising your clients on with, from an AEO and a GEO and SEO perspective?Yeah.I, this, this is a deep one for me because, of course, kind of the joke is SEO is dead, and tha- that’s a misunderstanding of the role of SE- SEO.Um, I was, uh, you know JJ Rosen.Mm-hmm.Uh, I think he’s been on this podcast.He has.He’s a great guy.So JJ and I did an episode of his podcast and talked about this, and, um, uh, the, this was sort of at the beginning of ChatGPT as an LLM being public and consumers being familiar with it, and he said, “Is this, you know, is SEO dead?Is this gonna replace SEO?”And, um, I said, “No, it’s not gonna replace SEO, but it might replace Google.”And so I think that’s what’s played out.And so what I’m seeing right now is a, um, I don’t know a better word for this, n- uh, but a confederation of the search space.It’s gonna break up and be disassembled.Now Google has a massive install base- But the way they’re leaning on their customers, their paying customers, to give them the data they need to learn, it’s really off-putting.Uh, it’s really too big of a lift.The Gemini results are not very good.Um, I, IThey don’t understandYou know, Gemini’s just using so much bad experience to get the learning that they need that I can’t help but think that there’s a real shot for someone- Mm-hmmto come in and be a replacement.But what I think is gonna happen inevitably is, um, moving toward a more confederated, spread out, uh, disaggregated search experience.SEO, at the end of the day, is the open market, and Google, as big as they are and as much th- as they want everyone to depend just on Google, they can’t own the internet forever.Mm-hmm.And so whether it’s DuckDuckGo or somebody else who breaks out and says, “Hey, we’ve got an idea, a search engine for the open web,” Google’s talking about the open web like it’s kind of some, I don’t know, second-hand cast-off of Google.That’s really the wrong way to see it and I think a bad experience for the customer right now- Mm-hmmand I think a bad, a bad business philosophy.And so yeah, I think there’s a lot of change coming.SEO’s not dead.SEO is forever because SEO is the open market, and until, uh, and unless we lose an open market where people want to be discovered and people want to find solutions, we’re gonna have SEO.We’re gonna call it different things, but it’s, it’s moving into a different era, but it’s not dead, and it won’t ever be dead.Yeah.That’s interesting you say that about Gemini and about Google.Just you would think that, uh, out of all of them, that they would have the upper hand with owning YouTube and all the transcriptions that can come out of all the video content.I mean, years of video content uploaded every day, and it’s like you would think they have all the data that it would take to dominate, but I, I agree with you 100% Yeah.Yeah, they have the data.IWhat we don’t know is we don’t know how much they’re using the data, and I don’t mean whether or not they can, but I think whether or not they’ve decided that that was the best way to set up the processing needed to generate their core libraries for LLM or, you know, however- Yeahhowever an LLM works on the inside at Google, um, it’s not working as well as it is for others.Mm-hmm.You know, um, take going back to the early days, you know, when you left, uh, you left a couple jobs to start Go Apps, and a lot of people think entrepreneurship is all about, like, freedom, right?Mm.But you probably learned some hard lessons about what it takes to be an entrepreneur back in those early days that I’d love for you to share.Yeah.IGosh, I don’t know.I mean, the economy’s been so crazy since COVID and inflation, it’s, it’s a really hard season, I think, for agencies, and I think everybody’s stuck at the intersection looking at yellow lights right now.And it feels like the economy is just jammed up, not for any real valid reason- Mm-hmmbut because everyone is sort of worried about what’s going on.I think that’s what’s unique now.Besides that, I would say SEO hasn’t changed and digital marketing hasn’t changed.I think what’s surprising is it goes back, and it’s a lot more consistent than one would think.So that being the case, entrepreneurship, it’s, uh, yeah, it’s a, a tough, it’s a tough gig.Uh, I don’t, I don’t think it’s for everybody.I would say in my life, the hardest things I’ve done are marriage and entrepreneurship- Mmand the most rewarding.Uh, 30 years with Tracy and 14 years with Go Apps, but, you know, it was a kind of a, a learning curve and a side hustle before that.But, um, I think it really is true that it’s for people who don’t see themselves doing anything else.Mm-hmm.And but on the flip side, that freedom, that’s absolutely been the case for us.Mm-hmm.WeThe, especially when you have small kids, it’s tough.I mean, I kind of started at the wrong time.It would’ve been good to start, like, right out of college or something, but I didn’t have that foresight.I waited until I had a mortgage and kids and said, “Hey, I’m gonna start a company,” and, uh, yeah, may, maybe tap the brakes there on that.But, uh, yeah, overall, I don’t know.I think, I think the freedom is there, and, and it is- Yeahit is good.But at the end of the day, I think somebody has to be the kind of person for whom it’s the right choice, and it’s probably the only choice.Mm-hmm.Yeah.Yeah, it’s- ‘Cause I don’t know, having a job, sometimes it sounds kind of good too.Yeah.Yeah.Well, you’ve, you know, you’ve innovated a lot of tools throughout the years.I remember, uh, seeing your project management software where you were managing, um, freelancers out there- Mm-hmmthat were doing some of the work, and it was very impressive.Like, it was I think beyond a lot of the tools that people spent, you know, millions and millions of dollars on building.But there had to have been a failure or setback along the way.I know there was in our business.Mm-hmm.T- talk a little bit about, like, some of those learning lessons of maybe some of those setbacks you had.Yeah.I think a setback, um, was figuring out our branding.I think there was a time, we started out as Epps Interactive- Mmand it sounded like a software company, and it was always that, um, you know, like a clip art logo and just needing some kind of name.Mm.You know?is kinda where we felt, and I don’t think we ever quite figured that out.And even with goEpps, I feel kinda stuck.It’s like, okay, is it about me?You know, because it’s my middle name.And so I think that’s been a challenge.I think the, um, the hesitancy that a lot of companies have to move forward, I think I have been able to avoid and just say, “No, let’s go,” but I can definitely feel the areas where we skipped over some steps and didn’t really slow down and think about it first.And the name has always been something I felt was just a little bit of a, an afterthought.And, uh, yeah, and I think besides that, there were a lot of false starts where you can spend a lot of money and do a lot, I don’t know, we’ve learned so much on those.I wouldn’t call them failures.Mm-hmm.But, but I would say definitely the name is something where I feel a little underdeveloped.And, uh, and then, you know, a lot of stop and start on new ventures, but I would chalk those up to part of that 25% of investing and learning.Yeah.Yeah.Mm.It’s got you where you’re at today.Yeah.What, what about as you look back, like, through the 14 years, like, what have been some of the proudest things that you’ve done that you go, “God, this helped us, uh, change the trajectory of where we were heading”?Hmm.I had something that happened one day that changed how I feel about myself, and that surprised me.Uh, it, my own behavior surprised me.Um, I got off a sales call.This was, um, probably late 2019.Got off a sales call, logged it in my tracking sheet, and I realized we were a hair below breaking a million for the first time ever.Wow.So I picked up the phone, I called the guy back, and I said, “Hey Roger, I for- I forgot to tell you, I really think we should do this other project while we’re doing this, and it’s 1,000 bucks.We should, we should do this.”And he said, “Yeah.Yeah, whatever.Just add it in,” and, and hung up.And, uh, and we added it in, and that was our first milliondollar sales year.Wow.You were $1,000 below a million.We, we, we were, uh, something like $783 short.Wow.And the thing that changed in me that surprised me was, for whatever reason, and you know, we all, we all kinda think about mental health, and you’re an athlete, you know- Mm-hmmyou think about endurance ath- Yeahyou and I both do endurance-type stuff for fun.Uh, and so, you know, sometimes it’s not so much about thinking about the decision, but determining how do I set myself up to sort of react in a certain mode?And I think moving to become less constrained and less conservative and less cautious, and to move to function more on instinct, that was a surprising thing.I was really surprised that I picked up that phone and took that action, and that it was literally a 3minute thing that changed the next 24 hours for me- Mm-hmmum, in a substantial way.And, um, that willingness to sort of let go and move on instinct, I think, was surprising, and that was a big accomplishment.And, um, I bought myself a gift as a celebration of hitting a million, an original theatrical release Star Wars poster from 1977, Style A, and it was one that I’d had when I was a kid that got- Wowtaken away from me, uh, by somebody who didn’t value posters in houses.And, um, I replaced it, and that was sort of a thank you to my father for buying that original poster for me when I was a kid and saw- Wowthe first movie I saw in a theater, Star Wars.Uh, he bought that poster for $5, and if I’d been able to keep it, it would’ve been awesome, but I replaced it as a celebration.It felt like making good on the vision that my father had given me for building a company.Yeah.Man, how did that million dollarsLike, the confidence that you had after that, I can only imagine.Like, now you take it from a million to where do you go?And I guess maybe how did it change your mindset beyond just, hey, I can now pick up the call and ask for these type of things, but were there other, like, confidence things that you started to see play out?Yeah, I don’t know thatI, I think it did not help my confidence.Really?But, but it definitely helped my vision.Okay.TheYeah, I don’t know why it didn’t, it didn’t affect my confidence.Hmm.It didn’t, it really make a, a dent, but it probably changed how I was willing to communicate about who I was and what I was doing, and to be a little bit more forward with people.May- it might have helped my confidence indirectly in that way.What it did is I, I walked down the hall, I talked to, uh, uh, Russ Jones, who I just caught in the hallway.I said, “Hey man, I just, just hit a million.”He’s like, “Wow, way to go.”And, uh, Russ was super nice, and, uh, chatted about it, and within 24 hours I, I was thinking, “Okay, we gotta go to 10 1000000.”And, uh, so it changed me in that way.But, um, I don’t know.I think these last few years, COVID, all that, it’s also been very humbling at the same time.So confidence is very, uh, well managed- Yeahand in check, but it definitely changed my vision of sort of what’s possible.Yeah, you talked about entrepreneurship and how it’s not for everybody, and you and I have both lived through recessions- Mm-hmmglobal pandemics, you know, market disruptions, a huge tornado that came through- Hit our officeyou know, East Nashville, and, um- Yeahdisrupted the whole market.And then s- shortly after, there’s a global pandemic that- Mmshut down everybody’s business.It’s like there were probably many times you were like, “Hey, I just need to go back and get a job with somebody,” but you didn’t.Mm-hmm.You stay- persevered through it- Mm-hmmum, which is a great lesson.Uh, what do you think, like- What changes came out of that for you with the business?Like of going through all that and the resilience you’ve had, the grit you’ve had to have.Yeah.The, uh, the big lesson, it’s been an affirmation of something.I’ve always thought of the Johnny Cash line, uh, “I keep the end out for the ties that bind,” and I make the ends plural.I think I keep the ends out for the ties that bind.I’ve always had a mindset of keeping the door open to new opportunities and exploring them.And so what that’s looked like over the years has been a lot of really valuable partnerships, and I think that’s been the thing that’s- Mmsort of helped us navigate ups and downs.I keep the ends out for the ties that bind.Yeah.And that, that, what that means is keepingI grew up in West Tennessee, not really different from Arkansas, where Johnny Cash grew up.And so when I hear that song, I understand it a lot better than Gemini does.Google Gemini cannot interpret that lyric, uh, correctly.Gets it completely wrong with absolute confidence.But what it means is you’re tying a load on a truck, you keep a little loose rope so you can connect with another rope that you’re tying on or whatever.Yeah.It’s keeping the ends out for the ties that are gonna bind the load.Makes perfect sense to me, but if you didn’t grow up in Arkansas or West Tennessee-maybe you don’t know what it means.But, um, keeping the ends out for the ti- the ties that bind has meant everything, and navigating with partnerships because there’s always an equation running that has 2 sides.Mm-hmm.There’s always production and consumption.The question for us is just where do we play in that scenario?Where do we play in that landscape?And when change happens, it changes the way partnerships can exist.And, uh, so now we’re, uh, we’ve, we’re- we’re, we’ve launched AEO.We’re excited about that.Also co-found- I can’t talk about it today unfortunately, but also co-founding another AI startup with- Wowa lot of folks out of California and, and, uh, l- local here, and we’re really excited about that.Wow.And so- We’ll have to have you back on another- Yeah.So we’ll have to, we’ll have to come back on- Yeahas soon as, uhYeah, waiting on some documents, and I’ll be able to talk about it.Great.But, uh, yeah, that is going to be very exciting, and I think that’s been the recipe for the last few years and the mindset is even when you’re alone as an entrepreneur, you’re never alone if you’re networking, you’re relating to people, you’re showing up with humility, and, uh, being yourself and being real with people.Mm-hmm.Because everybody’s got needs, everybody’s looking for opportunities.Yeah.Even if they’re doing well, they’re looking for opportunities, and I think that’s been a, a, a part of our longevity through the ups and downs.Yeah.Let’s stay on that topic a little bit ’cause you’ve partnered with other agencies.You’ve done great work for them.You know, you’ve probably pulled in other agency owners.Like- Mm-hmmwhat do you, like, what do you look for in a great partnership?Mm.With another agency, with a freelancer, with whoever’s gonna work with Go Apps.Like, what, what do you, what typically stands out?I think this kinda gets to somewhere that I’ve been growing as a leader, is looking at what information people are demonstrating as opposed to what information they’re delivering.And the information people demonstrate versus the information they deliver is all the difference in the world.And so I’ve almost even gotten to a point where I try not to take in information that’s being delivered.Instead, I probe and look for information that’s being demonstrated.And if you can see a circumstance where something is just plain and simple an opportunity for another entity and they just don’t know it yet, for whatever reason, and you can demonstrate that, that’s a lot better than having to do sales.Mm-hmm.And so I think looking at what’s demonstrated by a situation and finding places where there’s an actual fit, whether it’s a client or a partner or an investor or a new collaboration for a new startup, uh, for a billiondollar company, you know, whatever it is, uh, it’s always looking at, well, what’s their real situation and what’s demonstrated rather than told.Mm-hmm.Because we curate what we say, but we can’t curate what we demonstrate.We’re too messy, we’re too 3D, and we’re too human.I think that’s been the evolution for me in recent years.Man, that’s a great lesson too.That’s unbelievable that, uh, you’ve latched onto that ’cause it’s so true.I mean, that’s a interesting perspective- Mm-hmmon that.Uh, what, uh, what are you, what are you the most excited about right now about the business, the agency, the landscape?You said we’re gonna go through some challenging times.Mm-hmm.But what are you the most excited about?Yeah, I, I, uh, just read, uh, Geoffrey Moore’s book, uh, Crossing the Chasm, on selling, uh, so- uh, SAS software and so pivoting my sort of frame of reference from a services, service business to think about being a service bus- services business but also having a SAS product.Uh, Jim Hitch, good guy here in town, uh, worked with, uh, um, oh, what’s, what’s Miema and then- Mm-hmmBuffer.A good friend- Yeahuh, from the neighborhood here from, uh, early days of, uh, launching, uh, City Church.Um, Jim’s a product guy, as I would say it, and so I think that’s exciting for me is to start to sort of play with, you know, stealing Jim’s hat and putting it on and saying, “Maybe I’m a product guy today.”That’s been really exciting, and I think with the changes and what’s possible now with some of the tools and the, the level of sort of the, uh, the promises of the LLMs becoming, um, actually valuable, actually good enough to use, uh, that opens a lot of things up, and I think I’m excited about the product guy mindset and- Mm-hmmthat frame of reference.That’s really got me fired up.It’s exciting to, to, I don’t know, just kind of pivot and ch- have one small thing change a perspective on an entire industry.Mm.And getting to play in that space has got me fired up right now.Yeah.You know, uh, throughout the years every time we’ve talked, you were pretty niched in a vertical.Like, you- Mmuh, y- you know, I was always very impressed that you, uh, like, found these niches, and you went really deep in them and, um, gained a lot of clients in those areas.Like, what, maybe today is there certain verticals that you’re working heavily in, uh, beyond the new, uh, GEO dashboard that you’re building out- Mm-hmmand that tool?What, what markets are you into?Yeah.We’re gonna talk to a lot ofWe’re talking to a lot of private equity healthcare folks, uh, and not necessarily locally, um, all over the country.Okay.So we’re talking to a lot of them because they have an investment stake in companies and kind of need to look over the shoulder at some analytics and understand, “Hey, what are, what’s going on over there?”So we see that as a unique niche for us.We were part of a healthcare roll-up that was able to go from 0 to a quarter of a billion, and we were running 100 locations, uh, for B2C healthcare marketing, and so that was a really good experience and kinda got me exposed to the private equity world.And, uh, even meeting with one of my investors today saw, yeah, we’re actually further ahead on this product development than we thought we would be.Maybe- Mm-hmmmaybe this is a thing.We oughta really do this.And so, um, we’re, we’re seeing that as being helpful for agencies that need a little bit of innovative support added under the hood where they’re maybe doing fine with their client services, fine with content production, fine with strategy, but the tactical, uh, situation for organic search has just changed completely.Mm-hmm.And it’s very dynamic, so they’re not able to keep up with the learning curve as fast as we can deliver it with what we’ve built.So that’s gonna open us up maybe to franchises, uh, but I don’t ever see them spend much money.I- they just seem to be very shortsighted on marketing, and it’s all about getting money from the franchisees.But, uh, yeah, those are some areas.We’re looking at big networks- Mmand areas where there’s a disconnect between strategy and branding and the actual implementation, and, and we think we can help people connect those 2.So yeah, building on what we’ve done but also being open to where our new technology is, is most valuable.Yeah.Well, that’s super smart niche with the, uh, private equity firms, and, uh, you know, so I think that’s gonna be a huge win for you as you keep going down that path.I know in the past, though, there was adeveloped a product that was around painting services- Oh, yeahat 1 point.I don’t know, do you still do that?Oh, yeah.We’ve, we’ve still worked with a lot of painters, yeah, and that, that really became commercial painters and facility management, and so tr- commercial skilled trades have been a big part of our- Okayuh, mix for 14 years.Yeah.And did you productize that?Like, is it, is it prettyLike, is it all set in stone of what you guys do for painters still?We did at the time, but no.We’ve, we- it’s kinda, we’ve kinda gone way past that.Yeah.Uh, and, you know, the world changes, and people become more familiar and more conversant, and no, a lot of those clients are still with us, and others have built in-house teams.Wow.But no, we, we retire things.I think that’s probably a good note for agencies out there is be ready to articulate things with particular focus when it’s top of mind for the audience.Mm-hmm.And then when it becomes table stakes or a given, uh, have the document of deliverables ready to go to complete the sale.Yeah.So yeah, I would say it’s productized in the sense that it’s still very much part of what we’re doing, but it’s not necessarily as cutting edge as it was 14 years ago.Yeah.And, and that’s okay You, you know, you, uh, throughout the years too, you’ve also helped me along the way with, like, you know, when we were launching a podcast for a client, you hooked me up with, uh, with some people that you worked with you.You’ve always done podcasts throughout the years, that- Mm-hmmcontent creation, and I think I saw you’re still, uh, involved in doing some today.So, what have you learned about the podcasting space?How important is it- Mmfor, like, GEO today, uh, and, and the search marketing, how important is doing podcasts or doing some of this kind of content?Yeah, I think it’s really important.Uh, the thing that I think is missed out on is how it’s used after the video’s captured.I think that’s the area of missed opportunity for most businesses, and even agencies to generate as much value.Uh, sort of going back to my dad’s system and how he thought about things and this idea of systems thinking, something that I think GoEpps has been innovative on is thinking better of how to set up a project to yield more valuable volume- Mm-hmmof deliverables.And so for us, if we’re sitting down with, like, an EHR client of ours, uh, you know, a big electronic health records thing, these are big things, but they just, they’re just trying to associate themselves with something positive.So a typical project, uh, for us, uh, in years past with groups like that would be sitting down with, like, Olympic gold medalist Scott Hamilton and recording 3 hours of material.Well, first off, Scott’s one of the greatest guys anybody’s ever met.If, if- Mm-hmmpeople haven’t met him, he’s just an unbelievable treasure of a man to Nashville.Yeah.And we’re lucky to have him here.And any, anytime I get a chance with my boys to say, “Hey, I, I see Scott over there.Let’s go say hello,” I justThere’s never been a time I’ve interacted with him where I didn’t come away thinking, uh, “This is who I want my kids to be.”And so how do you capture that magic?How do you, how do you yield that out?Well, you should do it before you start taking lens covers off.You really need to have an editorial schedule that’s saying, “Hey, we’re gonna shoot for this many hours.We’re gonnaHere’s our content plan.We’re gonna yield this 250 clips out of this 3 hours.”All that should be planned, and I think that’s where people really miss out.Video production’s so expensive, but if you think about it before you do it- Yeahit can be really great.And so that, I think, is the key.And so we, yeah, we’ve always taken a, a maximum yield approach and worked back from there.I think that’s a missed opportunity for agencies doing video.Yeah, like the force multiplication of the content that they’re producing.That’s right.Like, I’m sure taking the video, transcribing it, creating blog posts, all the sh- clips.Yeah.All of that is important in getting it out there into the LLMs and- Yeahgetting it out there into the search.Yeah, so yeah, when a client comes to us and says, “Hey, we need to make a video,” I say, “No, you don’t need to make a video.You need to make video assets.We need to make a library, and let’s talk about it.””Let’s talk about how we’re gonna use this video, how we’re gonna load it to a landing page with a transcript on the page-” Yeah”for SEO, how, you know, or GE or AI.Uh, how are we going to use this in email?How are we gonna use this in our social media strategy?How are we gonna use this, uh, how are we gonna empower the sales team to grab these assets and use them in ad hoc emails to people they’re talking to real time so they can stay in touch with something authentic that makes a real connection?”If you’re librarying this stuff- Mm-hmmand indexing it and thinking of it the right way, you get, I don’t know, 10 times more for the money.Yeah.And so I think that’s critical.It’s a missed opportunity.Yeah.And podcasting plays well to that.It’s great for clips.Mm-hmm.That’s a great lesson.What, um, you know, I know you’re way advanced on the AI, sounds like it, with launching another company.What are, like, some things, concerns that maybe you have or that maybe you consult your clients with?’Cause I’m sure they’re looking at you as, “Hey, man, how should I be incorporating AI into my business?”Yeah.What kind of, uh, hesitations do you have or concerns do you have about AI right now?Yeah, the way, the way I feel about SEO is SEO is not dead.It will never die.Uh, it’s, there, well, there’s kind of this hidden irony in the, uh, British statement or slogan, uh, “Keep calm and carry on,” or “The Queen is dead.Long live the Queen.”I always say, “SEO’s dead.Long live SEO.”That sort of hidden nugget of irony in there I think is true of AI.I think AI is horrible.I think, uh, I think when Apple came out with the commercial that said, “Hey, here’s all the tools of human creativity,” and they put the, they put the tools in a press and pressed it down.That was same, the same tone deafness I think everybody has around AI.If we’re not thinking of AI as a tool for humans with a human in the loop, we should run from that option.But if we’re thinking about it as a way to empower real people that we care about and we want to see thrive and use the best tools to deliver the best value, then I think it’s great.But I feel, uh, a, a negative irony toward AI.I’m building 2 AI companies right now, and I think anything that thinks it can mimic human behavior- Hmmit would be better if there was a little humility involved, and it would make it a little more palatable, but I’m really turned off by that.But I think the real business implication is business owners have been sold a perspective on something of this is going to save us money.That’s not really how it’s playing out.Mm-hmm.It’s not even how it’s playing out in radiology and healthcare.It’s actually playing out in such a way that it’s improving quality in some areas, but not necessarily saving money, and those are 2 different things.And so yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s a, a huge, uh, caution flag that I feel very strongly about that might be surprising given that I’m starting to startor a startup plus, uh, evolving my own company to a degree.But yeah, I think human in the loop is the key, and if you’re thinking about doing anything that’s gonna be automated without that and it’s a creative thing, then I think it’s a misfire.And if it’s a gen take and you don’t have QA, I think, hey, let’s, uh, let’s read some horror stories on the internet.But yeah, proceed with caution.Yeah.Well, it’s been impressive to watch all the innovations you’ve done and the- Hmmcompany you’ve built, and I guess, you know, as you look back, like what, what do you hope that your dad and grandfather would say about what you’ve built today as they look at all the stuff you’ve done?Hmm.That’s good.Um, I am a student pilot, and when I learned how to fly airplanes, I took off, uh, my first solo, did my first, uh, lap around and landed, and then took off a second time to do another pattern.This is a typical solo flight experience that- Mm-hmmevery student pilot’s done.And when I took off the second time and I was up there, I sensed something with my grandfather that I had never felt.I did not know him.He passed away before I was born.Uh, you know, he’s contemporary of the Wright brothers.You know, we’re talking about stretching something out over a lot of years.So age-wise, not shocking that I, that I never knew him.But I didn’t have a lot of emotional connection to him either.It was more kind of, oh, this is part of my family history.Yeah.But I felt something, and it was, um, it was fascinating.And, um, I think the message there that I was receiving, uh, was something about letting go of control and trusting myself.Hmm.And I think Ben Epps would tell me, “All right, boy, you got ’em.Keep going.”I think it would be something like that.I hear my Uncle Pat to hear my grandfather, but I think it would be something like that.He was, uh, an electrician who said, “I think I could put some wings on this bicycle,” and started doing it.Uh, my dad, I think, would say, uh, “Well, you made it this far.”I don’t know.You know?Might, might be less so, but, um, I think what I would want to hear is, uh, “You have a great family.”I think that’s what- HmmI would most want to hear.Yeah.But yeah, that’s, that’s probably it.I, I think thinking about what they would say about me or to me, I don’t think it would have anything to do with work or business or money.I think it would be, “How’s Jack doing?How’s Charlie doing?How’s Harry doing?How’s George doing?How’s Tracy doing?”Yeah.And I’d be happy with that.That’s such a great legacy of why you started your business is to provide for your family.And that’s a, uh, great perspective.Hmm.Uh, whatYou know, as we start to wrap up, I got one other question- Hmmabout entrepreneurship, and, you know, you’ve been in this space for a long time.It’s not always the easiest business being an agency owner, as every agency owner that’s listening to this podcast would say.But, you know, let’s say you’ve got a young man or woman that’s, uh, getting ready to start their own agency today.What kind of advice do you think you’d share with them that could set them up?Something I go back to myself for often, in addition to I keep the ends out for the ties that bind, is the answer is go.And as we work with, for example, healthcare executives in Nashville, and not necessarily the top level executives, but more the, the middle 10 layers of management- Mm-hmmthere’s often a belief that if we get the plan perfect, we can’t fail, and we’re safe from embarrassment, and I think that’s a horrendous miscalculation of the human condition.That’s not how anything works- Mm-hmmor has ever worked.The answer is go.Yeah.Learn on the fly.Get started.You’re not gonna get it right.The answer is go.That is such a good thing to take away from this.And, you know, a- another great entrepreneur, he told me one time, he said, “Mark, you gotta go out and burn your ships.”And there’s too many entrepreneurs today, too many potential agency owners that wanna dabble their toes in the water a little bit instead of going, in order for this to be successful, you’ve gotta go all in, and you’ve gotta make this thing happen.Uh, because when your back’s up against the wall, you have no other way to do it than to run it like you know you need to in order to grow this thing.So it’s a great lesson.Yeah.Well, as we wrap up, is there anything maybe that I didn’t ask you that you think could be valuable for the audience?Hmm.No, I think it’s a great time of change.I think, uh, East Nashville’s a great place to, to be and to live, and I’m thrilled that you have invested in the neighborhood here and, uh, continued- Wellto build the, the culture of the community.And, uh, I think Nashville’s an exciting place.I think sometimes we get a little ahead of our skis and, uh, you know, we could do things a little more slowly.You know, growth at all costs is not necessarily a good thing.Uh, but, uh, it’s an exciting time, even with all the caution lights that everyone- Yeahsees because of the economy and AI and the pace of change.It’s also a time of transformation, and those are the times when people have a vision can catch that spark and do something new.And I think if anybody’s out there and they’ve got an idea for a spark, there’s no one keeping you from doing it.Go for it.Yeah.Man, that’s, that’s awesome.Well, thanks so much for being a friend over the years.Thanks so much for, uh, you know, everything you’ve poured into this community on, you know, from building the agency you’ve built.You’ve had a lot of really sharp people that have worked with you along the way and along your journey, and so really appreciate you being on the show today.Appreciate all you’re doing.If, uh, you know, if you have any questions for Michael, I’ll drop all of his information in the show notes and just reach out.We’ll get those questions over to him, or you can contact him directly.Also, if you would, please subscribe, rate, and review this, uh, episode so that we can get this message out to more creatives in Nashville.Until next week, we’ll see you on The Spark.And that’s a wrap on this episode of The Spark from Creative Assembly.Thanks for spending time with us and exploring the minds shaping Nashville’s creative future.If you’re walking away more inspired, connected, or energized, that’s exactly the point.A big thank you to our sponsor, Snapshot, and the incredible team behind the scenes who make this show possible.Your support fuels every conversation and keeps collaboration alive.So if you haven’t already, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review.Thanks again for tuning in.Until next time, stay creative, stay curious, and keep that spark.