On Creative Assembly’s The Spark podcast, our mission is to amplify Nashville’s diverse creative voices, foster growth through shared journeys, and inspire a city that thrives on collaboration.And now, here’s The Spark.Hello.Welcome back to The Spark.I’m your host, Mark Scrivener, and today, I am joined by Josh Miller, the president of 5 by 5 Agency, which is a change agency.And Josh, so excited to have you on the show.I’ve watched you over the last, you know, 10, 15 years that we’ve been in business.Just, uh, you’ve been with a couple agencies in, in that time span, and I’m really excited to hear your journey and your story and what’s got you here and becoming the president of 5 by 5.And let’s get into it, man.Josh, welcome to the show.Thanks, man.I’m excited.I appreciate the invite, Mark, and, um, same to you.I’ve watched Snapshot grow, and so it’s, it’s gonna be a fun time to have a conversation.Well, thank you, man.Yeah, like welike I said, man, you’ve spent your entire journey in a couple agencies in town that are very respected.And so maybe just te- talk a little bit about, uh, that.Tell the audience your journey.What got you into this?Yeah.I was talking to some friends just yesterday about how we got into this.Um, for me, um, I almost dropped out of college- Hmmand then because I wanted to be an engineering physics major, until I got into some of those math classes and quickly realized that wasn’t for me.Um, from there, I spent about 3 years taking all the, uh, electives that were possible Murray State University, and re- then realized it was time to, like, get out.So I got the, the book that had all the class listings in it and searched through it, and the only thing that counted every single elective was advertising.Hmm.So I got my degree in advertising, left, and went to work in the nonprofit world in Nashville.Um, through the nonprofit, I actually started to learn web design and development ’cause that was back when designers and developers were the same, same job.Mm-hmm.And, um, through web design and development, um, I got connected to, uh, Kid Red at, when it was Paramore Red- Okayback in the day.Um, and he, uh, interviewed me and told me, uh, uh, ba- basically offered me the job on the spot, which I now know 15 years later looking back-is a sign of desperation rather than anything else.They had to have a developer, right.They needed, they needed a- Yeahanother creative in the house.Um, so, um, w- was there for 7 years.Um, worked with Hannah, uh, which was fantastic.She’s such an amazing leader, and, um, just, uh, I, I have so much respect for her.There’s so many stories about just how she showed up for the team, how she showed up for our clients, um, that really shaped, I think, who I am and how I lead even today.Um, I was at Paramore at such a fun time.I mean, the, the creatives that I got to work with, um, were, I think, some of the best I’ve ever worked with.Um, you had Blake Allen, Brad Haynes, James Mathias, et cetera, et cetera.And you had just these amazing web designers and developers that were creating awesome stuff.And then I, I mean, I felt like I was just trying to hang on.And so I quickly kind of assessed my skill set compared to everyone else’s and decided, um, I, I’ve gotta find some valleys to fill because I, I’m not, I’m not with these guys.I’m not at- Hmmat that level.Mm-hmm.Um, and so I dug into things like, um, media development, and so we were doing some really cool stuff with, um, I’m gonna date myself, with Flash ads.So, uh, we were doing some really fun stuff with Flash ads, and, uh, a lot of the other team, like, they didn’t wanna m- me- they wanted to build- Mm-hmmbig websites.And so I really saw an opportunity to fill a gap and learn more about what, what’s going on in media advertising.This was 20- I guess probably 2007, 2008.Mm-hmm.Um, and so that kind of, um, began, uh, the story of my career, which is really just, you know, finding opportunities, um, in corners a little bit- Yeahand then, like, leveling that up, so.You know, one thing just there’s a lot of, uh, agency owners that listen to this podcast, and, you know, a lot of them, I mean, I would assume all of them know Hannah.And, you know, you know, when we started our business, I mean, I looked up to, you know, Paramore and said, “God, someday-we hopefully will be like Paramore,” you know, even though we had- Mm-hmm3 people in the agency.And, uh, I even told Hannah that story at 1 point, uh- Mmwhen she was getting ready to sell the agency.But- Mm-hmmyou know, maybe just how did she show up?Like how, you know, what were some things that really stood out to you that maybe others could take away from that lesson and, you know, start incorporating it in their business?Yeah.Um, there’s, there’s onehopefully she won’t kill me for telling this.Okay.Um, we were building out the, the tw- uh, the Church Street office space.Okay.And, um, we go up there to look around, and the build-out is happening.Um, I, I don’t remember the firm that we were working with that was handling the build-out.And, um, we go up there, and the contractor comes over, and you can tell, like, something is not right.And, um, so it’s just me and Hannah and him, and he starts talking through, it was a big portion, um, that, that space had a big outdoor deck.Mm-hmm.It was super cool.Well, somehow a big portion of the estimate of what the deck would cost got left out of the estimate that we, that she’d signed.Mm-hmm.Um, and he was like, “Don’t worry.We’re, we’re not gonna charge for this.That’s on us.But it’s gonna move the timeline.”Right?Well, Hannah looks at him, and I mean, this is her business, right?This is, she’s own- like sole owner.And she looks at him and she said, um, she said, “Are, are you gonna get charged for this work?”And he said, “Yeah.”And he said, “Are y-“She said, “Are you gonna pay your team for doing this work?”And he said, “Yeah.”And she said, “Look, I can’t in good conscience go back over to the, um, building that we were at and ask our team to ask our clients for more money when our estimates are off, if I’m not willing to pay you when your estimate’s off.”Wow.And she says, “You charge me for everything that you do.”And, um, I’m pretty sure she didn’t ever want that story to get out, but I think like, man, what integrity.Like, that was just me and him and her, you know?There, there- Yeahwasn’t, there was no, itThat’s just who she was.Yeah.And, um, there’s a m- there’s a million other stories like that, and some of them would probably make me cry to get into them.Yeah.That’s crazy.Um, but yeah, she’s great.Well, that just shows the character- Oh, my goodnessand the integrity that she had, and always take the high road- Yeahyou know, with, with things like that.And I bet it came back to her tenfold.Yeah.You know?Yeah.So let’s take it back to- Yeahdang flash and, um- Yeah.you know, Steve Jobs killed that at 1 point.But, uh- Yeahyou know, you started out on the building side and- Yeahin the technical part of it.What, as you grew, like what got you to start seeing, like, “Hey, I wanna maybe potentially be in leadership someday.”Mm-hmm.And wanna take over an agency at 1 point.And maybe none of that was in your mind back then, but- Yeahyou know, how did you start to transition out of the work- Mm-hmmand into more of the leading?Well, it was, again, you know, finding work in corners a little bit.Um, so, uh, we had, our creative director left to, um, go to Salesforce.He was gonna be the creative director out at Salesforce, moved out to San Francisco.Um, and then Blake, Alan, and I were, um, were kind of, kind of next in line.And, um, our creative director at the time spent a lot of time in, times in, time in meetings, and then he also was, um, was doing some of the work.Um, we had hired an agency consultant, um, that everyone would know a few years pr-about a year prior.And, um, he had come in to assess the team.And so we’re sitting around the room and it, in front of the whole team, basically, the whole creative team.He’s sitting around the room and he would be like, “So-and-so, man, you’re s- like, you have just really great design chops and I think the more that you lean into design, like that’s really your path.”And, um, he said, you know, next guy, “You’re a great developer,” and you know, so he g- it goes on, tells everybody what they’re great in.Gets to me, and he’s basically like, “Yeah.”Like, and I think he said something along the lines of, “I mean, you could keep trying to be great at all, any of these things, but, um, but I, I don’t know that that’s useful.”Like- Yeahso i- basically saying what I’d kind of felt, and it was honestly, um, good to hear, is like, “Hey, like, you’re, you’re a good designer, and you’ve, you’ve kind of squeezed all the talent out that you’re going to, and so you could toil in this and get incrementally better, but also what other opportunities exist for you?”And, um, which was hard to hear, um, but also I’m super thankful for it.So anyway, fast-forward, we have this moment, and I’m looking at Blake, who’s a fantastic designer and just a amazing creative and a great storyteller today.Um, and even still, we work together again, which has been such a gift.Um, but I looked at him and I was like, “Man, this guy needs to be designing.”Like any, any minute that he’s in a client meeting- Mm-hmmand not designing is a negative for this agency.And I kinda looked around at everybody on the team and I was like, “That’s kinda the thing.”And so we pulled everybody together and I said, “Hey, here’s what I’m gonna do.Like, I’m gonna take every meeting off your plate that I possibly can, and I want you guys to spend as much time as you can just doing the work.How does that sound?”And everybody was like, “That sounds awesome.”And so, um, so then I started going to all of these meetings and really start toYou sit in enough strategy sessions and you, you learn about how enough businesses work, and then you start to develop a feel for like strategy.And then you, you start to see like, all right, what are the opportunities?Where can we win?You start to see patterns of like, oh, we’ve got this whole section of business that operates very similarly.Mm-hmm.And, and so I, I just really enjoyed being in those rooms and really enjoyed, um, starting to t- speak into like how do we move this production team forward, and how do we angle into the types of work that we feel like we’re best for.Um, and I honestly got a lot of joy out of knowing that like, me sitting in those meetings w- were, was giving this whole team more time to kind of, um, work in- Mm-hmmin what they, what they loved.And so that was, again, kind of a roundabout- Yeahway to, to get into that.Support for the Spark comes from our sponsor, Snapshot.Building something that matters takes more than a good idea.It takes a brand people trust and a system that reaches the right people.Snapshot is a performance-driven marketing agency that helps businesses grow with strategy, creativity, and measurable results.To learn how to build scalable systems for sustainable growth, visit the link in our show notes.What, um, so you left a couple years in advance of the sale, but- Yeahuh, I’m sure you probably were having weekly conversations with people over there of, “Hey, what’s, what’s it like?What’s, what are you guys dealing with?”What, what were you hearing?Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think whenever we started FivebyFive, um, we, umI think whenever we started FivebyFive, like I, I kept in touch with some of the people, but I think once the sale happened, um, I, I think they kind of really focused on, um, moving the agency forward- Mm-hmmand trying to figure out what it looks like to, to integrate.Um, and so I, you know, I think there were some tough times- Yeahit seemed like.With that integration.With that integration.And especially with Hannah not being there- Yeahand not being that- Yeahyou know, leader.Yeah.And very quickly, a lot of the, I mean, agency moves so fast, so a lot of the people that I re- I was even connected to had moved on pretty quickly after the acquisition.Yeah.So you were in the early days of the start of FivebyFive.So yeah, um, we had, um, 5, we started with 5 team members, um, 5 executives- Okaywhich is not how you wanna start an agency really.But we, we like to say we were kind of, um, we were kind of saved from that.Um, but it, it was, uh, yeah, we started with 5 team members, and so I was part of the founding of the agency and really just developing like, what if we got to build an agency from scratch, like what does that look like?And now that Shannon had been at an agency before, I’d been at an agency before, what did we learn?What would we do the same?What would we do differently?What was really fun is like, you know, when she’d had success doing this and I’d had success doing that, and then how do we f- how do we, how do we merge those together- Mm-hmmto figure out like, can, can we grow faster?Can we, um, can we skip some of these early bumps along the way that you tend to experience- Mm-hmmas you’re building an agency, um, and get to something that’s, that’s bigger quicker?Yeah.Well, and I know, you know, you kept in touch with that team that you worked with in the past.You had a lot of respect for, even though you had left to found FivebyFive.Mm-hmm.You know, and ultimately, a lot of them came over and are now working with you.Uh, some of the people you’ve mentioned that- Yeahyou had a lot of respect for.And so it’s good that they, you know, followed you and you’re, you must have made an, the same kinda impact on them, so.Well, it’s, I, I think when you enjoy working with people, you know, and opportunities arise that, um- That you kinda take those again.Yeah.You know?And you, you never go back.No man enters the same river twice.Mm-hmm.But, like, I do think there’s something to, um, trust that you build along the way, and, um, I know we’ve had some really great creative directors at, um, 5 by 5, but, like, y- you always go through this trust-building.And I remember when Blake came on, like, there was just, for me, I felt like my shoulders dropped because I knew, like, that trust was already there, you know?Mm-hmm.And, um, there’sLike, I think you can, you can move through some bumps pretty quickly, um, when you have that, when you have that history.Yeah.Um, so.Well, when you guys, when you formed the, the founding 5 Yeahor the Fab 5did you, uh, did you guys all l- like evaluate each other’s strengths and maybe weaknesses and say, “Hey”‘Cause you said, “We leaned into each other’s strengths.”How did you, how’d you determine what your strengths were versus what Shannon brought and the other team members?Yeah.Um, so Shannon and I, I’ve, I’ve mentioned my nonprofit experience at the very beginning.Shannon and I actually worked together in a, in that nonprofit- Okayfor a period of time, and in that, we found that we worked together really well.And so she eventually went to, went back to her agency, and I started working at Paramoore, but we kind of always stayed in touch.Um, I, I got to a point with, um, Paramoore where, um, I, I loved the work, I loved what we were doing, I loved the team, um, but I felt like, you know, I, there were people on my team that were reporting up to me that were ready for the next step, and I kinda got to feel like I was holding them back a little bit.And, um, I think that tied up with I, I maybe might’ve been a little bit bored, and, um, then I had a coffee with Shannon, and she was leaving her agency, and she said, um, she said, “I don’t know what I’ll do next.”And I just said, “Hey, if, if you start something, let me know, ’cause I’m interested.”And, um, so a lot of, like that team that we built to start 5 by 5, Shannon was very much the hub of that.Mm-hmm.So, like, the relationships that she had, um, were the, were the people that kinda came together to start that.And I think her, um, she’s such a fantastic leader and strong leader that, like, there was, um, like, it, it was like, okay, if Shannon trusts this person, then I’m gonna trust this person.Mm-hmm.You know?And so we were able to, um, very quickly, um, gain a, a basis of trust to be able to work together really well.And I think that set, um, the tone for our agency in a lot of ways.Mm-hmm.You know, one of the things that we say is, I, I think I did a, a study a few years ago on how much, um, time and money companies invest in, like, what, what can effectively be called distrust.So we do all of this work and have all of these analytics and have all of this, and some of them are so we can run our business, and some of them are just because we don’t really trust our team.Mm-hmm.And so we have to have these validators.And I think, like, that’s been a little bit of a cheat code for 5 by 5, is like, yes, we wanna run a good business, and we have, we have metrics, and we still, we track hours and things like that, but at the same time, like, I think you walk in the door with trust, and, um, that, that changes how we operate the business.Yeah, man.That’s refreshing- Yeahto hear, too, and, you know, going back to the Shannon and Hannah, I mean, you- Yeahhave worked with some really strong- Yeahyou know, leaders along the way.Yeah.So you’ve been, you’ve been blessed.Talking about, like, your leadership, though.Yeah.You know, you’ve went through a lot of different title changes along the way.Was there anything that changed when the title changed of the- Mmway you, like, lead?Yeah.I, I mean, I think it, uh, you know, a lot of leadership for me has been, and I guess in tied to the title changes, has been like, sometimes you have to say goodbye to things that you really love, you know?Mm.And, like, I loved web design.Like, I thought that was, man, super cool.Like, I’m, I would nerd out over, like, you take a design, and then, like, we wereUs back in the hand coding days- Mm-hmmyou hand-code the HTML, and you hand-code the CSS, and then you watch it come to l- I mean, that was super cool.Um, but there, there came a time when I had to be like, “Okay, but not anymore.”Uh-huh.”Because I need to do this now.”And so I, I think, like, that’s been, umYou know, we talked a little bit before this, uh, uh, I was in a session yesterday just talking about humility, and like, and I, I don’t know how that fully ties in, but I, but I think being open to, like, closing the door on things that you may really enjoy and you may really like for the good of the business- Mm-hmmum, is oftentimes for the good of yourself, too.Yeah.’Cause it opens up.That’s a great point.I mean, it gives you opportunities to learn and grow.Yeah.But it also gives the people- Yeahin the organization opportunities to learn and grow, like you- Yeahlike you did at Paramore, like you’ve- Yeahdone at 5 by 5 by allowing people to step into those roles you love to do.Yeah.You know.And you still probably get to tinker a little bit- Oh, yeahhere and there with it.Yeah.On my worst days, I get to tinker.’Cause- Well- The eyes get big when I walk into certain rooms.Yeah.And I know, like, recently, uh, I mean, I guess over the last, like, year, you guys have also at 5 by 5, you’ve, uh, went to an employee-owned- Mm-hmmuh, model through- Yeahthe, uh, 3LS, um, partnership.Yeah.So maybe just talk a little bit about that.I know you came in as a founder.Yeah.But now, like, having, you know, everybody as an owner within 5 by 5 Mmyou know, how’s, how’s that changed anything?Yeah.Um, well, I, I think that, like, if f- for us, we started looking at employee ownership about 3 or 4 years before we actually stepped into it, um, because it was a, umInitially, it was, it was almost like a secret.Like, we hadn’t, uh, ever heard of it.And then as we started toI think we, uh, Shannon found out about it at a lunch with one of our clients, and then we started to dig into this.And, um, you know, so and then there was a point where we said, uh, as a executive team, like, “I think this is the direction for us.”And so there was still 2 years between that point and when we went to employee ownership.And so then we, we had to really, uh, engage with our leadership team and our whole team and just think through like, “All right, this group is getting ready to be employee owners, so how do we train them to be employee owners?”Mm-hmm.And so, um, we started doing things like opening up the books more, talking about how the business runs more, so that when we did get to the employee ownership and they were owners, they knew what that meant.Um, ’cause I think what we had seen in some situations is you just, um, you become an employee owner, but you have no framework for what that means orAnd so you’re like, “So does that mean, like, I can have your job now?”You know, it just, it, it could lead to a level of just chaos- Mmbecause you don’t know what to do with it.Um, but our goal was to set the team up well to understand what it meant to be an owner.And so I think, um, one of my favorite stories is when we told the team, um, one of our, one of our leaders, and I love this so much, he was likeWe were explaining what, um, an ESOP was and what it meant, and he looked me right in the eye.He so- he said, “So now if I bring ideas, they don’t just benefit you, they benefit me?”And I was like, “Well, I hope that you always saw them as benefiting you, but I see your point, and yes.Like, now, like, if, if you have an idea of how to make the company better, like, we all share in that win.”Mm-hmm.And, um, I, I just, I love that thoughtfulness from him- Mmof like, “Okay, let’s go.”Um, because, ’cause I think one of the things that is, I think, broken in agency is that we lose so many of our good people to what we affectionately call client side a lot of times- Mm-hmmbecause we, we can’t, we can’t offer them a way to stay.And I think that employee ownership, helps provide that way to stay.Mm-hmm.Where it, like, all right, let’s, let’s build a successful business that you get to participate in so that, like, we can all, we can stick together longer.And I, I think we’re starting to see that, um, just looking at the census of our team.you know, it’s, it’s older than it’s ever been- Mm-hmmin a lot of ways.And I, I think it’s, I think some of it is that, all right, I see a path forward for me to succeed in life here And like I, man, that makes me so happy.Yeah.Well, you know, and I know as this acquisition happened- Mm-hmmand you became an ESOP, uh, you know, Shannon took on a higher level role- Mm-hmmwith 3LS, and, um, you’ve stepped into the presidency of- Mm-hmm5 by 5.What changed in your job after, you know, that?Did, did you see any new responsibilities, or was it more the same?Uh, yeah, I mean, I think there was a lot of new responsibilities.Um, e- even more so than that, uh, Mike Schatz, Shannon, and I had, had kinda always been a, um, the, the ownership team.And so, um, you know, with Shannon moving into the new role, Mike moved into a little bit of a different role.And so, um, they were both still there, but in some ways, you know, we had to, you know, rebuild an executive team, um, orAnd they’ve changed.Like, we had brought a couple people on.Jordan White, Mike Linda had been on that team.Um, but there, there was a l- there was a little bit of building with that team.Okay, what’s the new cadence?What’s the new structure?Um, Shannon’s very, um, she’s a strong leader, but she’s also a very collaborative leader, and so, like, there was a lot of, you know, we, we made decisions together, and the final decision was hers, but we got there together.And so, that was just, that was a new, umWe still do that with our executive team, but that’s just working, again, building a different level of trust- Mm-hmmwith the team.Um, and saying goodbye to a, a, um, a really great, um, partnership in some ways that had worked really well for several years.Mm-hmm.You know?Again, everybody went on to better things, but you’re still, you still gotta, you still have to sunset that.And so, I think leading through that, um, you ha- you went from, uh, you know, we have some of our leaders are younger leaders, and so now you’re, like, training them up and, um, helping them see things differently.Because, I mean, even to some of our early conversation, um, you know, as people move into leadership, it’s always funny, uh, uh, to go back and think about what I thought was important to my leaders along the way.And then when I became a leader, what actually was important to me are tend to be 2 different things.And so, you, that, that requires training and growing and, um, and then they’re letting go of things, where they may have always done the thing, and now they’ve got to let someone else.And so, that’s a lot of, it’s just a lot of change.Yeah.So.Well, but you’re a change agent.There we go.So, uh- There we go.Hey, uh- We use that Yeah.Well, you know, now I’mI mean, before the show, we talked a little bit about, you know, just things that you’ve taken on that were on the acquisition side.So now as an ESOP and, you know, employees, they all win when we win together, and- Yeahso some of it is gonna be through acquisition, and I know- Yeahthat’s a main responsibility you have, is looking for companies, other agencies that you can fold in and, uh, that make sense.And I think you said you recently did one with a PR firm here in Nashville- Mm-hmmand you, um, you rolled them in.Like, what, you know, what was the hardest part of maybe that integration, or were there any hard parts to that integration?What do you look for?Yeah.No, that’s great.I mean, I think one of the things we look for is, like, is, is this an organization that understands our client base?Like, when we’reIn this case, we were adding a service line.we don’t have PR, or we didn’t have PR at the time.Mm-hmm.And so we were looking, like, that’s one of the things when we say, “Hey, we’re a full service agency.Oh, but we don’t have PR.”So all right, how do we remove that so we can just be we’re a full service agency?Mm-hmm.So PR, first on the list, um, and then we were looking for someone that understood our client base, so it’d be easy to roll in to current clients, and their clients would be easy to roll into our full service offerings.Um, and so once you find that, um, it becomes about, like, culture fit, and do they, they really get what we’re trying to do here and how we’re trying to grow?And so, uh, the team at Hersei and with Kristen, um, were, were, was great.I mean, the first, um, 1 She brought in a deck about her agency and literally went through client by client, and was just like, “This is how they’re a change maker.This is how they’re affecting change in the world.”And so that, um, that goes a long way to like- Mm-hmmall right, you really get what we’re trying to do here, and there is a cross-section of our clients that we can, we can work with.Now, integration’s still tough because you have one group that us- is used to doing work one way, and they’ve been successful doing that, and then you have one group that’s used to doing it another way, and they’ve been successful doing that.Uh-huh.And so the, the merge, um, is, is really important.And, um, I mean, I think we’re, we’re pretty much through that, but I think it’s taken us, you know, 6, 9 months- Hmmto really, like, get to that point where we’re really, really working together.One cohesive team.Yeah, yeah.So Josh, I mean, you know, uh, you’ve, you’ve acquired the PR firm, you’ve integrated them in.Now it’s like, what, what else are we gonna do?And I know, you know, AI is on every leader’s like mind in the agency world.Yeah.Like and you coming from a tech background- Mm-hmmand creative, like, how are you thinking about AI at 5 by 5, or how are you and the team integrating it into what you guys do today?Yeah.Yeah.Um, man, what a great question.I mean, I feel like that’s the milliondollar question- Mm-hmmthat everybody’s trying to answer.Um, I, I think for us, uh, we’ve, we’ve given our team access to all the tools, and we are letting them work with those tools.And so, um, and, and then we are rising up or, I guess, raising up leaders that are using the tools and just showing like, “All right, this is where we’re winning here.This is where we’re winning there.”Um, I just, um, was looking at some agency analytics, uh, and we– we’re seeing, I don’t, I haven’t heard other agencies talk about this, but we’re seeing a significant, um, efficiency, um, margin, um, for the past 4 months.And I really think that a lot of that is AI, um, c- um, showing up in- Hmmin the numbers.So, um, for our team, like we talked about this just Friday, it becomes, all right, how do we use this opportunity?How do we use this margin to over-deliver for our clients, to do better work?Um, you- we’ve all been at agencies long enough to know like, oh, if only had a little bit more budget for this client, we could do this amazing thing.All right, let’s do this amazing thing now, right?Mm-hmm.Let’s just, let’s do it.Um, and so I, I think some of it is, um, removing some inefficiencies that we’ve just never been able to quite work out of the agency, and some of it’s real opportunity for, for growth.So, um, we’re, we’re super encouraged and excited and, um, looking to operationalize some of it- Mm-hmmwhile at the same time it changes so much.I don’t know if you saw, I think today or yesterday, Claude is going to start watermarking all of its content with like kind of a digital signature.So everything that goes through Claude will now be able to be identified as having gone through Claude.Hmm.And so what does that mean for a team that uses Claude for editing or a team that uses Claude for writing or, um, a team that uses Claude for coding?You know, all of those pieces start to, umAll those changes are just super interesting.Yeah.And we just got to deal with them as they come.And you have to stay up with them- Yeahlike all the time.So it’s, uh- Yeahit’s just like the internet in the early days.Yeah, yeah.It changed all the time.And now it’s AI changing.Yeah.But I’m excited because, like we’re finally starting to get some real data, and I think so much of, um, the, the futurism of AI has been built around this grandiose like, um, vision that in a lot of ways has no foundation to stand on.Mm-hmm.But in the absence of actual truth, it proliferates.And so now that we’re starting to get some truth into the story, now we have a baseline to stand on and be like, “Okay, this is what it’s gonna be.”Mm-hmm.Um, because that, that’s been my frustration is like, you know, your team comes in, they’re like, “What does this mean?”And you’re like, “Here’s what I think it means.”But then somebody else is yelling, “Here’s what I think it means,” louder, and really it’s just, all right, well, you have to decide who you’re gonna listen to.Mm-hmm.But now when the data starts to come in, we actually can like, “Okay, now see?I told you it’s gonna beYes, things are gonna change, but also it’s gonna be okay.”Yeah.Like it, it’s not gonnaWe know this, go back to the flash joke, right?Mm-hmm.It happen, change happens fast and slow at the same time.Mm-hmm.And so it’s, um, and I think we’re in one of those opportunities.And as long as you keep your eyes open, like I think, I think we’re gonna be, I think we’re gonna be good.Now I, I personally think there’s gonna be some agencies that are gonna start to see that efficiency model, and they’re gonna think, “Man, let’s ride this.”And I don’t, I don’t know the, what the future is for them.Mm-hmm.But I think, you know, we’ve been, you’ve been in this business long enough that like We have been trying to outrun commoditization since day one.Like, things are always getting easier.I go back to, um, when I was a developer, I think I- I spent 40 hours developing a form one time.And it was all good work.Like, I, it wasn’tLike, it was just, that’s what it took- Yeahto develop a form in Dreamweaver 25 years ago.That worked.Yeah.And now that takes, what, a minute?And it, and it’s also integrated with 5 tools.So, like, it’s, yes, this is gonna be faster and different.Also, we- we’ve seen patterns like this before.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.It’s, it was the best arm form you ever could- Uh, it wasn’timagine back then.Oh my gosh.But today it’s even better.There you go.It took, uh- There you goa few minutes.That’s funny.But, uh, you know, you’veYou know, we have been in the business for a long time together, and- Yeahyou, you know, you, it being in Nashville, we’ve both been here, seen it.Like, I’d love to just hear, like, what you’ve seen change in the agency world from the early days, even from a client side, the expectations to do great work- Yeahtoday versus way back in the day.Yeah.I, I feel like my view might be a little skewed, um, because I come from so, so much of the digital side.Mm-hmm.So, I mean, when I started, we were building websites, but we really didn’t know why.And we wereYou know, I remember when Google Analytics came out.I remember when, um, a track, a, analytics, or, um, form tracking came out, and you’re like, “What does this even mean?Like, how is this gonna be used?”And- Mm-hmmum, so I think what I’ve seen is just a digital getting increasingly tied to actual business growth, and that’s what’s gotten me, um, really excited over the last few years is, um, I think we’ve, as, as digital marketers, we’ve settled and stopped short of true business metrics for a long time,andI think, like, that the fact that we measure things on how many clicks we get, or we measure things on impressions, or we measureLike, I think we got, uh, infatuated with the measurability- Mm-hmmas opposed to the growth metrics.And our job was always to grow our clients.Mm-hmm.It was, it was n- never to just get, to stop short.And so I, I hope, like, one of my hopes for AI, I think you guys are working on some of this, is that, you know, we c- we get to some, we realize some of these attribution opportunities that we’ve been talking about for 20 years.Mm.And we’ve never really delivered on in some respects.There are, there are cases- Yeahwhere we get the attribution all the way through.Um, but a lot of times it’s, it’s borderline impossible.Yeah.And so I, I get really excited about that.Um, I’m real- You know, we’re doing some fun work in marketing effectiveness, and so I, I’m excited about how to integrate that into some of our digital capabilities to under- again, to look at, like, things like, all right, we’re doing all of this work.Is your business growing?And so, like, all right, if the business is growing, then let’s back into which of the work is actually working.But, like, let’s not, let’s not get caught with these little tweaks on the front end if, if we’re n- what we’re doing isn’t affecting your business.Yeah.Man, such a good point.And you’re exactly right.It went from the impressions to now it’s the reality of how are we growing your business- Yeahbecause the clients have wanted that all along the way- Yeaheven though now it’s more relevant than ever before.Yeah.So great, great stuff.Well, and we’ve stopped them on time on site sometimes- Mm-hmmand we’re like, “Well, time on site went up.”And they’re like, “What does that mean?”We’re like, “I don’t know.”I don’t know.Yeah.Well, you’re exactly right.Well, what, as you think about the legacy that you’re gonna leave- Mmat 5 By 5 or w- whatever’s next, you know, what are you the most excited about, and what do you hope your legacy is when you, when you wrap this thing up?Hmm.Uh, you know, I think a big piece of my journey, um, was I wanted to be done early.Like, I was like, “Man, let’s get in, let’s get out, let’s get on with it.”And I think that was a part of starting 5 By 5, um, my, with Shannon and Mike, ’cause I thought, “Man, I think we’ll, I think we’ll get to wrap this up a little bit early.”Um, and a few years ago, I think I started to see business differently and see the opportunity for like, um, what if, what if we can create something that sustains?Like, what if we can create something that op- uh, offers real opportunity for our team, you know, to, um, have families and live and grow in Nashville.And, um, I, I don’t know.Uh, that shifted my view to like, man, I, I kinda wanna be in this as long as I possibly can.And so I, I think, I mean, I look at, I look at agency and I see a lot, I see a lot of great things, um, but I s- I see a lot of things that are wrong with it too, you know, that are innately wrong with the way agencies operate.And I, I wanna be a part of eliminating as much of those as possible, you know?Wow.Like, how do we, how do we take some of the, you know, the weird badges that we wear of like how many all-nighters we’ve worked, and how many, you know, how, how many weekends we’ve worked?And how do, how do we right size that into like yeah, maybe you need to do an all-nighter or like m- maybe we need better planning.Maybe we need, you know, maybe we as the owners need to be more responsible for getting paid for all the time our, our teams worked, you know?And so when you start to unpack some of those, you see this like, you kinda see this nastiness of like, all right, well, the team was working too much, and so that produced work that wasn’t great, that now we can’t really charge for, but now we’re behind on, so the team has to work more so that we can- Mm-hmmget that out the door.And it’s like, all right, well, how do we break that cycle?What would it look like if we just said, “You know what?We’re gonna commit to doing this much really good work each day, and if you give me this much really good work, I’m gonna commit to getting paid for every piece of that work.”And then we don’t have to discount stuff anymore.Yeah.And we’re pr- and, and we start to develop a work-life balance that is sustainable.You know, we start to develop r- really good businesses that can pay our teams.We start, you know, and so, like, whatI mean, there’s, there’s 12 other of those problems that are- Yeahjust as ugly that, like, I, I think we can solve.I think if we, like, really put it, we’re smart people.Mm-hmm.And we’ve seen ’em long enough, and I think if, if we get tired enough of them, like, I think we can fix them.Yeah.Like, I think, I went to, I got to hear this guy, and, uh, he ran a 200-person team in New York.And, um, he was talking about like, “Hey, this is what’s good about the work I’m doing.This is what’s bad about the work I’m doing, and this is how I’m trying to fix it,” right?”This is how I’m trying to participate in making it better.”And, like, he was like, “Basically, I have, at any point, I have 3 people doing the same job because I know that, like, I can’t give them the opportunity to build expertise, and so they’re going to leave at, like, in 6 months.”So, and he unpacked this problem of, he’s like, “I’ve gotta figure out how to give them the opportunity- Mm-hmmto build expertise.”We don’t have that problem in Nashville.We can, we can, we ha- like, we’re building smaller agencies- Mm-hmmthat have to have expertise.Yeah.You know?So, like, it was so, ’cause you look at, like, a lot of times I’ve looked at New York and I’m like, man, if, if I’da just been in New York, I could’ve been a contender, you know?You know?Well, I mean, your lesson, though, that, of what you’re trying to eliminate is every agency owner that’s listening to this has ex- they’re probably all thinking the exact same thing, man.Yeah.I, I would love to figure that problem out and love to fix it.I know we’re working on it very hard here.And, um, so I mean, it’s a great vision that you’ve got for- Yeahwhat we need to do.And, and that collaboration, how do we all collaborate together- Yeahand figure it out together, and we all win.Yeah.And I think that’s another message I’ve always taken from, like, you and Shannon and your team.It’s like, you know, that collaborative- Yeahyou know, model.And, uh, you know, Josh, this has been fabulous.Is there anything maybe that I didn’t ask you that you wanna share?Um, I don’t think so.This was a great conversation.I really appreciate the questions, the thoughtfulness.Oh, man.Um, it was, it was good stuff.You, you shared some great insights, and really appreciate you letting me share your story.And, uh, it’s been a great one.And like I said at the beginning, man, I’ve enjoyed watching your rise through, you know, Paramore and, and now through 5 By Five, and now every role you’ve taken on along the way, but up to being the president, man.So- Yeahproud of you and, uh, thankful that you were on the show.Yeah.Thanks.I appreciate the- Yeahinvitation.Yeah.And- And thank you all for, uh, being a part of the show as well.Uh, if you would, please subscribe, rate, and review, just so we can get this out to more creatives and agency owners around the Nashville community and, and beyond, uh, as we’re starting to get more and more reach.Uh, keep tuning in, as I love sharing the stories of other creative agency owners and creative directors and all the community here in Nashville that, uh, really is the ecosystem of our agency community.So, thank you for being a part of it, and, uh, until next week, we’ll see you on The Spark.And that’s a wrap on this episode of The Spark from Creative Assembly.Thanks for spending time with us and exploring the minds shaping Nashville’s creative future.If you’re walking away more inspired, connected, or energized, that’s exactly the point.A big thank you to our sponsor, Snapshot, and the incredible team behind the scenes who make this show possible.Your support fuels every conversation and keeps collaboration alive.So if you haven’t already, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review.Thanks again for tuning in.Until next time, stay creative, stay curious, and keep that spark.