On Creative Assembly’s The Spark podcast, our mission is to amplify Nashville’s diverse creative voices, foster growth through shared journeys, and inspire a city that thrives on collaboration.And now, here’s The Spark.Welcome back to The Spark.I’m your host, Mark Scrivner, and today I’m joined by a special guest, Michael Hutsell.He’s the co-founder and creative director of Fox Fuel.Uh, Michael, man, I’m, I’ve been looking forward to having you on the show- Me too, manfor a long time.We have had some amazing creative directors, uh, people that have been in the business for a long time.And just what I know about you is, and I think I’ve mentioned this to you, I think you’re one of the most creative guys in town with one of the brightest futures in this space.And so it’s exciting to have you on the show today, man.Wow.It’s great to be here, man.Thanks for having me.Yeah.Well, maybe just to kick us off, maybe just, uh, talk a little bit about your journey.Know you went to Western Kentucky University- Yeahgot your, uh, graphic design degree.But what, what got you to Nashville?What got you into this?What were some of your first jobs in- Yeahthe space?So I, um, Western Kentucky University, uh, when I went there, was one of the top photojournalism schools in the country.And, uh, the art school there had a specific graphic design program, which was a little bit unique for the area, so that stuck out to me.And I also had s- a sibling that was going there, already graduated, so I was pretty familiar with the school.And it actually offered in-state tuition to where I was living with my parents, which was in Sumner County.So all those boxes basically ch- you know, checked, and- YeahI was like, “Let’s go.”And when I went there, the s- the design program was great, and, uh, I was loving it, and it was kind of very validating.I was taking a lot of studio art classes, too, which was kinda scratching my original passion, which was drawing.Um, and one of the things that I kinda realized was the photojournalism program, the journalism school, had a top-ranked student newspaper.And I probably got the idea sophomore year.I was like, “I think I need to be a part of that.”Mm-hmm.So I went in there, and all the people who were working the paper were in the journalism school, and they were putting together a great publication, but there were some little areas here and there where I could tell maybe they needed some more designers.So I, I applied, got in, made basically nothing.And I think the biggest thing that I kinda walked away with my time there was the insane dedication that that staff had.I was putting in ridiculous hours.I was already working long hours in the studio.And, uh, I remember leaving that paper 2:00, 3:00 o’clock in the morning to, to get out.Wow.And so I think what II didn’t know it at the time.I really want to, even when I left college, I f- I look back and I’m like, “I was kind of an idiot.”I didn’t know what, you know, just- Building a work ethic.That’s exactly right.Just seeing people, howI, I felt like I ha- always had a good work ethic.I think my parents instilled that in me, um, and I think I have it, you know, just genetically.But seeing it done for creative professionals in that capacity, and people who were driven to, like,Like, that really imprinted on me.Mm-hmm.And so s- leaving college and getting my first job, it was kind of a high bar already- Mm-hmmfor the product that was getting produced and the effort it took to do it right.Um, I have no idea if they’re still pulling those types of hours, you know.I, I- Yeahdon’t know if that’s 100% necessary, but I was blown away.The photography that they would put in, the, the, just the quality of the writing, all of that definitely planted a lot of seeds for me in terms of the way I work and the process that I kinda have- Yeahfor creating good work.Hmm.So.Well, you’ve spent, in, now that you’ve been in Nashville for a while, I know you’ve spent over a decade working for multiple agencies, and, um, done some great work.When was the time that you said, “Man, I wanna go do something different and stop building for other people”?Yeah.Um, so I, I was fortunate enough to get an opportunity to work at, uh, GS&F.It was still Gish Wor- Gish Sherwood & Friends when I, I started there, and, um, they hired me to work on the LP account.And because I was assigned to that account, I got to work very closely with the then CEO, Jeff Lipscomb.And so I remember my first week, towards the end of the week, I went to a meeting at LP’s headquarters in downtown Nashville at the top of a high rise.Mm-hmm.So I’m looking out at Nashville.I’m, I’m not even in my 30s yet.I was very intimidated.I, I, I hope I didn’t let it on, but he probably could suss it out in me.basically threw it to me in this boardroom to discuss some- Wowweb projects that we were working on.And I don’t know.I, I don’t know if he would say this, but I feel like he saw something in me.I think he’s probably had dozens of people in his long, great career, uh, that have come along that he’s, you know, identified something.But looking back on it, I could tell that, um, he spent a little extra time and put a little bit more attention into me.Long story short, I was there for nearly 5 years.I mean, during my course of time there, he, he talked to me about opportunities and, “You know, I could see you doing this.”And that was the first time that my, my kinda aspirations changed from like, “I wanna be the head creative guy,” to “Why can’t, why can’t I do that?”Mm.”Maybe I can learn this business, and maybe I can sit in, in a boardroom and not completely embarrass myself,” and all of that kinda stuff.And so he probably doesn’t even know this, although I’ve tried to tell him multiple times through email and over coffee and lunch and all that, that that confidence that he showed me changed my life.Um, it really did, just because it was a, um, uh, maybe a little bit of arrogance that he instilled in me, or a just self-belief that I could do more.And then all of a sudden, it changed what I looked for in terms of opportunities, and it’s a direct correlation for Fox Fuel.Yeah.Um, so he kind of planted that seed in my head that I could spin something off.You know, at first it was, you know, talking about possibilities, and none of that came to fruition with him, and there’s a dozen reasons why that happened, but that belief never went away for me- Wowbecause he believed in it.And so, uh, yeah, just, well, just what a gift that, that’s been.And now, you know, we’re, we’re getting close to 12 years in, and we’ve had the fortune to go up against them for some stuff, and some we’ve won, some we’ve lost and all that, and it’s just, uhI, I can’t talk about how much I have respect for him and some of the other people who, uh, take the time to mentor- Yeahthe younger people, so.So important.Yeah.And I’ve, I’ve listened to, um, things that you’ve said in the past, and I know Jeff was a big influence, and he’s a great guy, and veryHe’s humble.Mm.You know?But he’s a great, humble leader that I know- Constant account man, and- Has got, uh, got good people that have came out of GS&F.Absolutely.And it’s great to hear that story.But like, so he was really a person that gave you the confidence- Mm-hmmthat, “Hey, I can go out and do this on my own.”Yes.”Build, build my own thing.”What gap did you see in the early days maybe that you thought you and your 2, uh, fou- uh, co-founders were gonna, like, solve for Nashville?Yeah.Yeah, I get, I get asked a lot, uh, especially if I’m talking to designers or other cr- you know, creative students or, you know, just even younger professionals, you know, like, “You know, how do you do this?”Because I think a lot of people do realize that being good at your craft is a small part of it.Um, I think I go back to that.You know, those mentors, the people that I really gravitated to represented different aspects of the agency business.They weren’t just creative directors that I admired.I mean, it sta- started out that way for me.Mm-hmm.But once I kinda broadened my, uh, horizons or kinda like my scope of what I was looking at, it definitely became a little bit more about, uh, if I learn how to manage this account or if I learn how to create a better strategy, not only is that rounding me out, but that’s allowing me to be a better creative director.And so that was kind of the big aha, and there’s a lot of aspects ofthat I would consider kinda contributed to that.It was those sides of the business, but it was also, like, beyond design.Mm-hmm.How does becoming a good writer help you?Um, what is it that means when you’re away from your computer?And so I kind of became enamored, and truth be told, I’m still kind of in this space, of what are all the connective things to the core of where I started.And I very much try to be a, you know, um, a jack of all trades, if you will, um, because I, I do think that all of that has a really significant impact on doing what I love to do, which is developing creative ideas- Mm-hmmand seeing them from, you know, conception to completion.So I think it was that in doing that, you do realize what you’re really not great at.And so one easy thing is, is like I have a good knowledge for the finances of like the business, but I’m not good with numbers.Mm-hmm.Uh, I have a very good instinct for client relations and stuff like that, but I’m not always the best person to work a room.Um, and there are other aspects, uh, that I have really, you know, had some deep dives in, uh, career-wise, which would be like web design and, you know, other, you know, specific aspects of it, and a lot of video, and a lot of those require team efforts.And so versus maybe a branding project where I could do that from start to finish or an advertising campaign.So those really kinda taught me the true meaning of collaboration, right?And how to articulate a vision- Mmwith the team and get that spread out.And so in doing that, really realized like, hey, I’m never gonna be able to do development, not at the level of my business partner, Joe Boettcher.I’m never gonna be able to woo a room or work a room or get somebody excited like an idea like Colton Mulligan.And so as I identified my, my own shortcomings and weaknesses or things that I’m honestly, uh, not interested in developing, it became a little bit more of an easier organic process to surround myself with people who made me better.And I would contribute that with not the start of Fox Fuel, but the success of Fox Fuel.Um, getting that formula right has proven to be, um, crucial for us, uh, knowing how we work together and w- how we separate.Mm-hmm.What’s your lane?What’s my lane?How do those things come together?Um, so, uh, long story short, what I tell students is know, know yourself.Mm-hmm.Know what you love, know what you’re good at, and know what you suck at, and act accordingly.Yeah.Well, you know, I mean, I, I know you do mentor a lot of young students and teach and- Yeahand whatnot, or you have in the past.And, uh, but you know, that is such a valuable lesson of what youI’ve watched you, I’ve watched your team, like, and you guys, you know, surrounding yourself, I bet you the 3 of you, uh, are like a superhuman going into any kind of a room where you’re trying to pitch an idea.It’s like, you know, Colton’s got all the ideas.You actually can dream it up.Joe can probably execute on all of it, so- That’s exactly rightit’s, uh, you know, it’s exciting to see.And, um, you know, but, you know, that lesson that I get from you is you’re a constant learner.And, you know, I think we do have a lot of young students that listen to this podcast, and I think, you know, for somebody out there that’s aspiring to be a creative director, you know, I just have continued to watch you lean in and learn about the video, and you’ve done some amazingly big video projects.And, you know, branding and strategy, all that was your, that’s what you came in with.Mm-hmm.And I just see so many creative directors, it’s like, “No, I’m a creative director.All I do is write.”Yeah.”Well, I’m a creative director.All I do is design or brand.”Yeah.And, and for you, being that multifaceted creative director is very, very valuable and powerful.Yeah.I, IWell, thank you.Um, you know, I, I think it’s al- always in the eye of beh- the beholder.I do think that, uh, thinking about yourself, uh, or your career outside of very well-defined categories or boxes can be scary.And the reason why I know that is because that’s, that describes the first 5 plus years of my career.Um, I, I think that, that one of my sicknesses is that I, I really do enjoy the vulnerability of trying something that I know that I’m not good at yet.Mm-hmm.And I also love defying expectations.Uh, it’s been said that I have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about things, and so, uh, it’s not just about being successful in terms of getting, you know, a campaign done or something.Sometimes it’s just about like, I wanna prove to everybody that I can do this well.And, um, I get a lot of satisfaction out of doing that.And the reason why I do is because what we do is still pretty narrow.Mm-hmm.Uh, it’s, it’s pretty specialized, and so I, the last thing I wanna do is niche down even more in that very specialized area.Um, but I, I, I appreciate you do saying that.I, when I think back about my 20-plus years, 1, it’s surprising to me that it’s been that long.Mm-hmm.But 2, it’s like the things I cared about when I started and what I wanted my book to look like and what I wanted my reputation to be is completely different now.Like, I went to school for graphic design.I was very design-oriented, and that’s in my bones.That’s never gonna go away.But I spend the most of my day now writing and directing, um, you know, video shoots and commercials, uh, leading campaigns and strategy sessions and stuff like that.It’s not stuff that I learned in school.Uh, the, the base blocks of it are.It’sI think what I learned in school was how to learn how to do this stuff.Mm-hmm.Like how to, how to wield capability, how to jump in the water and then figure out how to swim on some of that stuff.I mean, I, I had some video shoot experiences, you know, in my, you know, 20s and stuff like that, and I think back on it, I was like, “That did not go well.”Nobody will ever see that video ’cause it’s so terrible.Uh, I’m sure the crew was looking at me and being like, “This guy does not know what he’s doing.Why is he here?”All that kind of stuff, versus now I might still have that, but I care less.Yeah.So it, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s funny how a little bit of that time and those projects and a little bit of gray hair will change people’s perceptions of you, but sometimes I still feel like that, that person-where I’m like, “What, what am I doing?”Uh, imposter syndrome is what people usually call it.I know that that’s a good place to be because I know I’m growing.Um, and so I, I doI guess I’m kind of used to being a little uncomfortable is, is- Yeahwhat I’m, I’m getting at.Um, yeah, and- Well, and if you don’t have a little bit of that imposter syndrome, you probably got too big of an ego, right?And it’s like- Or you’re resting on-that humilityyour laurels.Yeah.You know?Yeah.That’s a good point.Support for The Spark comes from our sponsor, Snapshot.Building something that matters takes more than a good idea.It takes a brand people trust and a system that reaches the right people.Snapshot is a performance-driven marketing agency that helps businesses grow with strategy, creativity, and measurable results.To learn how to build scalable systems for sustainable growth, visit the link in our show notes.You know, as we were doing research, I, um, read in, read something that you wrote about branding not being like a flow chart.Yeah.Uh, and something that, uh, a brand built purely on, like, guidelines- Yeahends up polished but lifeless.Like, where did that, where’d that come from?Um, I, I mean, the people who have, you know, worked at Fox Fuel or interned at Fox Fuel and my clients are probably so tired of me waxing poetic about this, but I, I do feel like there’s this tendency for the people who think analytically or scientifically to try to apply a structure to what I consider to be a very artful process, um, a very free-flowing process.And, um, it, it, it’s all done in the correct ratios, right?So, you know, you wanna have good project management.You wanna be, you know, good stewards of the client’s time and dollars, and, you know, you wanna check those metrics and make sure that you’re not spending too much time or resources over-delivering or under-deli- I mean, all of- Mm-hmmthose things areTo, to be clear, I’m not dismissing that.But there is a tendency for some people to tightly ratchet down that process because I think it makes it more approachable for a lot of people.It’s steps one through 12, and some agencies even want to brand that, package it, and sell it.I get the merits of it.What I think it does is it makes the work a, a basic commodity.I think you start seeing a lot of sameness.And so I’m a proponent for putting in those guidelines and those things, but making sure that the process is not dictating the product.Um, and so there, there’s a lot of different ways, uh, to kind of, uh, go about that.But, you know, if the client’s most interested in checking those 12 boxes and not in the quality of the work, what I would say at minimum is that they’re not a good fit for Fox Fuel or for me.Yeah.Um, and, and the way that we kind of talk about it and what I think where you’re getting at and what a lot of my rants, I don’t even call them ra- what a lot of my rants are about are personality and, uh, making sure that a brand has one, and making sure that the who is more important than the what.Uh, we work with a lot of, uh, B2B brands, uh, you know, whether in healthcare, tech, what, what have you, and Nashville’s, you know, teeming with, with those types- Mm-hmmof brands.And the tendency for them, forest for the trees, is to lose sight of, hey, y- you still have to make a human connection.So I feel like we’re out there chumperding, like, you need to have a vibe, and the best way that we’ve been able to show brands that is by doing that for ourselves.Fox Fuel is very vibe-oriented.Uh, we definitely communicate what we do, but the first thing you’re gonna glean when you come from our website is what we’re about- Mm-hmmas people.What are we like?Um, what’s our sense of humor?All that stuff.And I, I, uh, think even if you’re doing, uh, you know, very obscure tech behind-the-scenes products for, uh, a health cor- healthcare organization, billing, blah, blah, blah, like the most obscure white label thing that you could think of, when you’re in that sales process, you need to have personality.And maybe that personality isn’t witty or funny or snarky, but it has to be something.So I think we spend a lot of time trying to pull that out, and that’s not a checklist process.That’s a- Yeahthat’s a spend time, learn, connect with people, and, uh, I love it.I love that part.I see that too in your, uhI get your emails, and they’re very clever- Thanksand, uh, very creative, and I mean, you do get that off your website as well.So, uh, I mean, great job on that.Thanks.What is a brand that you, like, look to that you go, “This is exactly what we try to emulate”?Uh, or maybe a couple that you go, “This is kinda where we get this philosophy from.”Uh, yeah.I, it, I don’t, I don’t know.I, well, I, I think that there are a couple great examples of it.I, I, the one I use a lot with, uh, students who are, you know, on the, you know, different, you know, gamut of, like, product designers- Mm-hmmright, whatever they’re, they’re interested in doing or y- you know, video people, what have you, Dollar Shave Club is a great example of how personality can, can run the day.Um, their delivery method is, you know, pretty ubiquitous, you know?It’s just ship direct to home, whatever, and the product is a commodity.They don’t create new products.They might have some sub-brands now.But the way that they had success is the way that they announced themselves, the vibe, the CEO having a personality, and that’s felt in the brand.And so that connected and resonated with people, and then they were ready to hear their value proposition.So I think that that’s a really great example.Another example is GoDaddy.GoDaddy didn’t come out and give- Mmanything that was unique at the time, but they were louder, and they were more, uh, personality and vibe-oriented, and so now they’re synonymous with domains and hosting.Mm-hmm.So I, I think that, um, agencies at their best can champion that, that idea that what you do matters, but who you are is, can be the most important thing, especially when you’re swimming in a field of competition and, uh, noise- Mm-hmmand, and all that isThe, those are 2 examples.F- for me, a home base for me is always Nike.Um, talk about, uh, getting into a space where, um, a commercial can move you.Mm-hmm.And, uh, ultimately, I think that if, if I were to reset my whole career, I, I think I would wanna go into the movies or TV p- show production.I, I have a really, uh, res- uh, a lot of respect and kind of love for what can be done well in that medium.And if I can get somebody to get teary-eyed or laugh at something, is- Mmthat is, that fills my cup for months.Yeah.Um, even if nobody ends up seeing itIf I, if I get moved by it or the client does, um, that really, really sticks with me.So, uh, Nike’s- It’s just that storytelling, right?That’s exactly right.I think Nike has done a really great job of that for, I mean, I mean, God, 40-plus years now.Yeah.So, um, that one’s a, a really great example of how elevated storytelling can really change, change a whole industry.Mm-hmm.Well, you know, y- just looking at your site and seeing some of your clients and seeing some of the work you’ve done, I mean, you work with some really big brands like HCA, Bridgestone, Tennessee Titans, just to name a few.Mm-hmm.But, uh, no other big brands.Yeah.And it’s like when you look at some of those brands, you think they probably wanna be more conservative as they go out.And so when you work with them, how do you balance that, “We gotta kinda lean out on the edge, but at the same time, we, we can’t go too far”?Yeah.Like, what, what’s the approach with those big brands?I think it’s a day in, day out, um, uh, relationship-oriented, um, uh, fight’s too strong of a word, but it’s a dance.Yeah.It’s a dance every, every day.I, I do think that we’re not always right.There are, um, p- situations when, when we have really great client relationships, which I’ll, I’ll shout out a couple right now.We- w- MTE, Middle Tennessee Electric is a, is a great example.They really know how to use us as a foil and vice versa.And so in discussions and collaborations with them, it’s really worked out well for us to push a little bit when we need to, but never leave who they really are.And so a lot of ways, you know, the stuff that, that we’ve done over the past 2 or 3 years, I’m, 1, immensely proud of, and 2, I think that that relationship really reflects what Fox Fuel’s capable of.But I also think, too, it, it’s, it’s not about us casting a vision or any kind of thing on it.We’re, we’re showing a mirror up to who they are truly.Mm-hmm.And so that has a, a great deal of authenticity to it.Um, and there’s, there’s aspirational messages and stuff that we have on it, but they’re all genuine.So I, I think in that case, that’s just as much their credit as it is ours, um, because they have been such a good collaborator and client partner, uh, throughout that whole process.And I’d argue they get it.They get what we can do, and they get who they are, and they advocate for both when appropriate.So I, I think that that’s been a really great relationship.I, I definitely think- You know, for the other ones, this is another, to go back to what we were talking about with the account management, what you’re talking about to me is not always solved with what I do.It’s not a creative director’sIt’s not always in the creative director’s ability to fix that.That has to do with the landscape that the accounts, department- Mm-hmmor the account executive, or the principal, you know, in our case, like kind of set the stage and the relationship so that there is a little bit of that healthy tension, you know?Uh, we can kind of push this.But you’re exactly right.Uh, we, we sit down with countless clients, and they always will end up with what they are.Mm-hmm.This is what we do.We do this, this and this.And so it becomes a little bit statistical.It gets dry, and it’s accurate, but it’s forgettable.So it, it is, um, it, it is a daily thing to, to push for that, and we win some and we lose some.Yeah.Well, I think, uh, I read you, you know, you teach right now at Nossi, um, College of Design, and so you’re, you’re teaching graphic designers.And I loved your story early on about Jeff and taking you into the room, and you had to present at a very young age, and it gave you that confidence.Like, what do youLike, when you’re teaching these young students coming out wanting your job down the road, what do you teach them about?Like, what’s important about that first-time presentation when you get in that seat?Yeah.Oh, man.Um, well I, I’d say, uh, I usually say getting the, the reps in is a big part of it, you know?You, you are definitely going to improve.Just like anything else in, in life, you’re not gonna be fantastic at it on the first thing.Mm-hmm.I, I do think that people do have a natural proclivity.What’s helped me is having mentors, but also having a good command of like what it is that you’re presenting, right?And so what I do now and what I try to bake into when we’re reviewing work, either if I’m, if I’m talking to a student in a classroom environment, like at previous gigs at Nossi, or if I’m just doing portfolio reviews at Belmont, or I’m just talking to a student that’s reached out for coffee, I, I, I always accept, um, or anything in between.Mm-hmm.And then just people on my team.The, the, the critique or the review is always based in the how are you gonna articulate this idea?And so just in them presenting it to me, it’s having a, an understanding and a strategic perspective or why that you’ve created something.And in that story, you’re also presenting another thing that I think is very important, is that you care.You’ve spent time on this.You care about this idea.In a lot of capacities, when you go into that room, you’ve spent more time on this problem than anybody else in the room.Even the CEO, who makes a lot more money than you do, you know, at H- HC- Mm-hmm.whatever the client is, you’ve spent more time on that.And so I take a lot of confidence in that, and I, I think I try to communicate that to the students because they kind of have this, the tendency toTo be clear, not everybody’s built for that room.Mm-hmm.And so I think that there’s a lot of merit in trying it and then realizing like, “Hey, I’m sick to my stomach.I don’t wanna do this,” or, “I was terrible at it,” and I think that that’s okay too.Not everybody’s gonna be in that room.Mm-hmm.Not all creative directors have to pitch, but you did learn something- Yeahabout yourself.But even if you don’t have that, presentation skills are huge because you still have to sell it to your boss.Mm-hmm.That’s a great point.Or you have to sell to a, a c- and so- Mm-hmmto, to think that you’re gonna be a creative professional in any capacity and that you don’t have to do sales, you’re out of your mind.It’s a very sales-oriented job.Everything you do is selling an idea.Mm-hmm.So.What a good point.Man, that is a, uh, great point that I don’t know that many people have mentioned that- Mmin the past on, on this podcast.So thank you for shouting that out.And then I guess just with what you’re seeing right now with university students, ’cause I know you also lean into some other universities around town and give one-off presentations about the world.what’s, what are you seeing as like a misconception of what students actually perceive- Yeahversus reality of, uh, day-to-day agency operations?So I, I’ve, I, uh, I do think that there’s been a commonality, uh, with huge technological waves that come in.And so probably about 5 year, uh, maybe even less than that, a few years into my career, social media really hit.Mm.And I just dated myself significantly, but oh well.Um- Hey, you still, you still look like you’re 30 So I mean, you’re probably gonna look like that the rest of your life.I was just, let’s make the lights dimmer in here.Um, yeah, so i- and, and to me, going through that as a young professional, it was a huge opportunity for me, because I kind of got this opportunity to like come in and like help people with the change, because they just naturally assumed that I was part of it.And when you’re younger, it’s easier to like pick up things.You can be an early adopter and all that kind of stuff.But the truth is, is like I wasn’t really doing anything special.And I just wasn’t afraid of it.So but i- what I noticed in the industry, you know, and I was, I kind of transitioned from a publishing company into, into agency land in Nashville, and the, really the, the fear and the excitement about it, uh, was kind of the same about social media everywhere.And it was like this, “I’m excited about it.I know we should be doing it, but I don’t know what to do.”And so people had a hard time grasping how to start.Where do I begin and, you know, is in doing it helpful in, in, you know, helping us learn?I see the same exact thing with AI.Granted, it is far more impactful than I think social media is gonna be, and it is far more widespread in terms of how it’s gonna affect communication and just operations in the world, right?Personally, you know, at company and brand levels, organization, like all of that stuff.But I see a very similar emotional reaction- Mm-hmmthat I saw on that.And I think for people who are craftspeople, like designers or writers, there’s always this fear of it’s going to change my job so much or it’s gonna take away my job so much, that they put it in a box and leave it, and they don’t open it.And so I think that that’s the thing that I’ve been trying to communicate to students that are graduating, and rightfully so, they’re, they’re very nervous about what the job market looks like.I think AI’s a, a contributor to that, but I don’t think it’s the only reason why the job market sucks right now.Mm-hmm.So I think I’m trying to reassure them that it is a tool and not a replacement.Yeah.And that, I’ll give an, a quick little- Yeahanecdote and then I’ll move on from it.The anecdote that I use all the time is, hey, when photographers saw stock media sites get more and more popular, and internet got more and more popular, I re- uh, when I started, it was like all on CDs.Mm-hmm.Again-dating myself.just the waters weren’t even there.Well, we’ve had, we’ve had people that have been on the show that talk about T-squares, and- YeahI was like, “What are you talking about?”I’ve seen those in museums.Tell me.Yeah.Uh, so, um, stock photos sites are now, my clients all have access to all the exact same resources that I have.They all have Adobe Creative Cloud.They have all the stock clips that I use, the, they can reach out to all the people that I use, uh, in terms of crews and all.I don’t gatekeep any resources.They have everything that I have, or they have access to everything I have.Mm-hmm.1, that’s, that’s a little bit different.It didn’t always used to be that way.And now with AI tools, it’s exactly the same.They can all sign up for the same things on it.What I can produce, whether it’s on a stock photo site or, you know, using a- Adobe Creative Cloud or whatever the program is, it doesn’t even really matter anymore, or AI tools, is different than what the clients can produce.And the reality is, is that has everything to do with what I input.My prompts, my searches for stock photos- Yeahthe way I take those and combine those elements, that is, those are ingredients for a recipe.Mm-hmm.And so if I get the same s- set of ingredients in front of me, I’m a terrible sh- cook.If I get the same ingredients in front of me and then a world-class chef gets the same ingredients, whose meal would you rather cook or eat?Yeah.So that is what we’re talking about here- Mmis how does that st- how those decisions get made and, uh, and so in summation, I think what I’m trying to tell the students is don’t dial down on I do logos, or don’t di- dial down on or, or embrace what it is that makes a brand work or a visual brand work or a logo work, and then utilize that in a, a variety of things, because that’s an echo chamber.Like, there’s a dozen things that a company needs related to that, and you should be the one to help them, like- Mmarchitect that and pull it all together.Yeah.So think broadly, I think, and be a chef and not a, a, an ingredient producer.Um, and when you sit down and use all of those tools, let’s, let’s be clear, 5 years, all the tools that we’re using now are gonna be different again.Mm-hmm.That evolution is gonna continue to happen, and if you’re not in the kitchen making meals every day- Other people are gonna come in and do it faster, better, and cheaper, and you’re gonna get into it.So- Another great lesson.And I would say it’s interesting ’cause it sounds like you’re leaning in to AI in the same way you- Sureleaned in to learn video- Yeahand learn everything else you’ve learned over the years to be multifaceted- Yeahin everything you’re doing.I think it’s fantastic.What I, what I’ve been telling people is I use it for my process, not my product.Yeah.And so I was able to, I go- I went on vacation a couple years ago, and of course, as soon as I sat down in a beach chair and my mind was quiet, I had an idea for a script and for something that was, you know, due in a month or two, and so I voice memoed it to my phone.And when I got back to the house, the vacation house, you know, uh, later that day, I took all of that, created my, uh, treatment document, and then I went to Midjourney and created all the pre-vis for a 60-second spot.All in, I took an hour to do that.I think back about 10 years when I had to do that pre-vis and treatment for- Mm-hmma spot or even a campaign or whatever like that, weeks.Mm-hmm.I gotta find the right stock photos.This isn’t right.Maybe I can shoot something.I mean, it wouldSo difficult to communicate an idea well.Mm-hmm.And if I didn’t get the right visuals on it, I can’t sell the client on it.They gotta see it.Now it is unbelievable what I can do with that kind of automation in Midjourney or some other- Yeahplatform like that to put what’s in my head in pixels that- Mmquickly.And then we go shoot it.We go use people to, to execute that vision, and it, it’s not even good for me to sell to the client, but my DP can see it, and it’s like, “I know exactly what’s in Hutt’s hea- head right here.Like, we’re gonna do this,” and all that stuff, and it’s just another thing that I’m like, “This used to be the worst part of the project, and now it’s the best.”Man, it’s- And-awesome to hear you say that- Yeahbecause, I mean, some of the most creative creative directors, you being one of them, uh, have all said the same thing of, like, how much time savings, how- Yeahhow they could just explain an idea to a client in a- Suredifferent way of saying, “Hey, here’s how we are thinking about this, but this was built in AI.We would actually do it live, but just so you can see what it could look like.”And hearing you say that’s, um, you know, inspiring, so.And a lot of creative directors are leaning into that now.Yeah.So, well, you know, you founded FoxFuel.You guys all left to come together and start FoxFuel with a CEO that’s got a huge personality, you know, and love Colton to death, and he’s the guy you want in the room, right?Absolutely.He’s gonna sell anything, ice cubes to Eskimos is what I-always tell him.But, uh, anyway, and then, you know, uh, your CTO who’s building all the websites and everything- Yeahand all the, you know, executing on a lot of the technology.Like, I know over the years you probably have had a big disagreement, and maybe talk about, like, that with d- all kinds of different personalities.They always say having 3 founders is, is a pretty difficult thing to do-when you’re in business, but- Yeahand maybe how’d you guys work through that?I mean, I, IHere’s what I would say about it, and I, uh, the th- the thing I would caveat is if you asked all 3 of us, I think you’d get 3 different answers.Um- Okaybut m- in my opinion, one of the things that’s worked really well is, like, we’re, we’re friends first.Okaywe just genuinely like each other.We didn’t necessarily see each other and say, “Hey, we can all make a bunch of money.Let’s get together.”It was more like, “We like working together.”And the agency that we were at, it was kind of more about removing what wasn’t working and moving forward with what was.Mm-hmm.So I really like that kind of, like, minimalist approach, and, and I think the thingWe got lucky on some of the decisions.Uh, we also got lucky, too, because Nashville has just been a unending blessing to us.To start a company in 2015, I mean, we really did just fall ass backwards into success.I mean, there’s so much business to be had, and we, we are, you know, theEven the quality of the work has improved substantially and all that kind of stuff.I mean, we, we, weThere’s definitely been significant growth, but we were good when we started, and so w- we had a lot of things going for us.The truth is we haven’t had any huge disagreements.There have been different takes on client work and, you know, us having tension and i- discussion.I would real- hardly even say arguments.But for me, it was kind of part of the process that I’ve already been part of.I gotta go another round with the accounts team about this and sometimes- Yeahmy, you know, drawing dispersion.It’s been d- known to happen that accounts and creative might have a different interpreta- Mm-hmm.So some of that I kind of actually take comfort in is that that is happening and knowing that that tension and discussion leads to more bulletproof work.Yeah.We’ve already, we’ve already gone throughSo there’s definitely been some of that, but ultimately, the 3 of us kind of want different things.But I think that there’s enough autonomy and space in that, that it’s, it’s really worked well.So yeah, we’ve, we’ve heard and seen the same things.3 f- founders, it’s hard to work, you know, make that work.It’s another, you know, completely different dynamic, but it has just worked really well for us.And I think, too, that we’ve got our clear delineations on who does what, but one of the things that I picked up from my time in EO was, uh, finders, minders, and grinders.And so basically everybody falls into one of those 3 categories.So finders is, is definitely squarely Colton, right?Mm-hmm.We get in a room.We get people excited about this idea, and that idea sometimes is just working with us, right?Mm-hmm.Or, “Hey, how can we help you develop that?”And then they go on, and Colton has really also helped us, like, network in terms of agency partnerships and all that kind of stuff, and just in the business community.I mean, he is, he is a fantastic connector.He is a great people person and all that, and so he just really embodies that finder role.And then you have minders, which would be me, and that is what are we doing, let’s make sure we’re thinking through, you know, the big picture here.What does the client need?What’s the creative vision?How do we execute?Do we have the right team in place?All of that kind of stuff.And then we have Joe, who’s the grinder.Joe i- and I, I’ve, I’ve written about this on the blog too, but it’s like, uh, I always say that he’s, like, the one to make sure, like, things don’t blow up, right?And it’s just, like-very thoughtful- Mm-hmmand methodical and just a really good, uh, antidote for Colton and I’s, uh, you know, overlooking details or potential pitfalls with projects.And I mean, both of those guys are truthfully 2 of the smartest people I’ve ever met, and so I got lucky with that, too.And so tho- that- that’s just been a really goodI just think we, we all make each other better on that.Yeah.Right?And because we each represent one of those, those roles, finders, minders, and grinders, it has really given us kind of, like, a piece that’s even beyond, like, a do I develop or do I, you know, create or do IYou know what I mean?It, it’s, it’s more of a who am I personality wise and what are my tendencies and how do I use that, you know, at Fox Fuel?’Cause I’m not just a creative director at Fox Fuel.I, I do a lot of things.Mm-hmm.Right?And both- Yeahmy partners can say that as well.And I think itBut they all are doing their specific finder, minder, grinder role.Um, I know hopefully you get some ad dollars- Oohfrom the app Grindr on this.There you go.New market there for you.We’re gonna ask for a sponsorship.There you go.Um, but yeah, i- it’s, uh, I, I think that theI, I love categorizing those types of things- Yeahin that, and it, to me, it gives it a, a new lens to kinda look through on.And I also use that when I meet clients.Yeah.What, what is this person?What is theirAre they a grinder?Do they like to go away for a couple days and work on so- And that tells me something about how I need to present and work- Yeahwith them versus the other 2, so.Man, well, I can see a short clip coming out about the- Yeahabout this section.So, uh, it’s awesome.Yeah.But I guess when you, uh, and, uh, you know, just d- leading into that, like, you’ve got, you know, iron sharpens iron.Yeah.And it’s like if you don’t have healthy disagreements- Mm-hmmlike, you’ll never get the best work.And I do see it on the flip side that one of the founders shuts down because, you know, there is a little bit of tension and- Sureand so they never are able to grow or- Yeahyou know, do their best work.So it’s great to hear that’s how you guys get your best work out is challenging each other and, you know, having that healthy tension that happens.And it, it works well sometimes, and sometimes it doesn’t.Yeah.And I think everybody has different comfort levels with it, too.I, I definitely, I don’t really shy away from that.I, I kinda like it a little bit.I don’t invite it.I, I’m ultimately somebody who wants, you know, um, peace, but I also want pride in the work, right?And sometimes it does need a little bit of that.I’ll just take something that’s half-baked, and we use Slack a lot, and it’s kind of like our informal place.And I’ll be like- Mm-hmm”And I’ll just put it in our creative channel.”Um, and really what I’m hoping for is arrows.Shoot some arrows at it.Like, uh, and I’m, I’m not feeling confident about this right now.And that, that’s not always the case, but sometimes I’m like, “I don’t know.What do, what do you think about this?”And just hearing people react to it will either make me feel more confident about it or less confident about it, and that tells me something.Sometimes I take it and I’m like, “That’s trash.”I’m gonna move on to something else.And so that vulnerability is so important for everybody on all of that andBut you, you have to be in a place where you feel like you know that somebody’s gonna react in a way that’s helpful.Mm-hmm.That doesn’t always happen.People have agendas and, and all that kind of stuff and- Good point.it still hurts.Mm-hmm.I just hide it better than I did when I was, you know, in my 20s, but yeah- YeahI still don’t like- Somebody shitting on my idea.Yeah.It’s not a good feeling, so- Mm-hmmyeah.Well, what, uh, like looking forward 15 years from now- Mm-hmmwhat do you, what legacy do you want- Oohthe Nashville community to know about FoxFuel and about Hutts?Uh, about me, I mean, I, I don’t know.I feel like the ship’s already sailed on that.Um, for FoxFuel, I, um, I mean, the, the line that we kinda use that I think drives our culture, it’s very simple, but it’s, it’s very on the nose.Do great work with people that you love.I think at the end of the day, because the company was founded by 3 people who respect and love each other, and as friends first and foremost, and as humans, um, that definitely kind of rides it.And plus we, I think we’ve done a really good job most of the time of hiring people who really truly care about what it is that they do, right?Um, I like to say, you know, if we’re hiring a developer or a designer or anybody, they would do this in some capacity whether we were paying them or not.And so we’re just kind of co-opting their time and saying, “We want you to do that with us a little bit.”And that sounds trite to say, but most companies are filled with people that would not do that.Hmm.And so there’s a little bit of that passion that’s baked in.So I would say I want us to be known as that, a, a place of people that care about each other and, um, don’t try to chase the, the shallow things or the- Mm-hmmthe things that might look good on a spreadsheet or whatever.It’s more about good work and good people.That, that, that to me is, is a legacy on it.I, I love being involved with the schools because I just want a student to be like, “FoxFuel’s badass and they’re cool, and maybe I can get to work there and maybe not.”I- that matters more to me than a healthcare CEO liking my work.Yeah.Getting the validation of your peers and, and stuff like that is unfortunately important to me, and so I very much, uh, love that.And so I th- I think that’s one of the reasons why we like to spend a lot of time in that and kinda nurture those, that, that next group.Doing great work with people you love.Very simple.I love that.And- Yeah, that’s, that is a Colton Mulligan TM.He has trademarked that phrase, and I think it’s, it’s dead on for, for what it is.We’ve had it on our front door and, and all that kinda stuff, and- See, I was gonna R&D that, rip off and duplicate.And that was gonna be, uh, something we said, so- Well, rip off and duplicate-you can TM that.Um- It’s good to- You knowknow that he’s got it trademarked, so.Yeah, no, I, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s definitely served us well.It’s a great, uh, distilled message for, for what it is that we look in.I think, I think oftentimes the, the simplest way to say it’s the best.Mm-hmm.And so that, I think that that really nails it.And I think too, you know, you know, for me in particular, you know, I did have, you know, nearly 10 years of agency experience, some of that really great and some of it really terrible.And all of that kind of carried over for me on seeing examples or, or being privy to or participating in really the wrong ways to do it have been just as informative for me too.So my legacy for me is I, I think I want first and fore- and again, this sounds so trite and simple.I just want people to know that I care, like I’m trying to get better.It’s not necessarily like getting somewhere.I just like somebody knowing that he cares about trying to do great work.He’s doing what he can to make that happen.Yeah.Like I, I know that sounds crazy simple, but that’s really all I want people to know about me in a professional sense.You know, I’m so glad that, uh, we got a chance to do this.1, I felt like I knew you, before this.I feel like I know you so much better now.I mean, your passion for people, your passion for the work, your passion for the learning is just, it’s, it is so obvious now to me, and I’m just glad that we had a chance to sit down and- You too, manshare this with the Nashville community ’cause hopefully there’s people listening to the show that wanna come to work for FoxFuel and- Yeahwork with you, and, you know, or agency owners that now wanna partner with you, and that’s the whole reason that, uh, we started the Spark Podcast and, you know, is just to connect great people.And, you know, I enjoy getting to meet so many great creatives, and it’s been a pleasure having you on the show today.Yeah, same here, man.Yeah, it’s been great, and I, I agree with you.I think, uh, all the agencies need to, uh, collaborate more.Yeah.You know?I think that that’s a, a big next step for the agency industry here is for, you know, uh, stop just thinking of them as competitors- Totallyand more as collaborators- MmI think would be, um, a big thing.I think there’s a huge amount of opportunity for everybody in that.That mindset of abundance is- Yeahgonna grow the creative community of Nashville.So- Yepexcited you’re a part of it and all you’re doing for the, uh- Thank youNashville creative community, and agency community, and um, teaching all the students.So thank you.Yeah.Thanks for being on the show.And thank you all for joining us again today.Uh, really great episode.I hope you get as much out of it as I did.If you would, please rate, review, and subscribe to the channel just so we can get this out to more creatives around Nashville, more agency owners and students that need to hear this coming out of college.Um, we’ll see you next week on The Spark.And that’s a wrap on this episode of The Spark from Creative Assembly.Thanks for spending time with us and exploring the minds shaping Nashville’s creative future.If you’re walking away more inspired, connected, or energized, that’s exactly the point.A big thank you to our sponsor, Snapshot, and the incredible team behind the scenes who make this show possible.Your support fuels every conversation and keeps collaboration alive.So if you haven’t already, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review.Thanks again for tuning in.Until next time, stay creative, stay curious, and keep that spark.