On Creative Assembly’s The Spark podcast, our mission is to amplify Nashville’s diverse creative voices, foster growth through shared journeys, and inspire a city that thrives on collaboration.And now, here’s The Spark.Hello, everyone.Welcome back to The Spark.I’m your host, Mark Scrivner, and today, I am joined by a 35-year executive marketer, Bill Zink.Welcome to the show.Fractional CMO currently, but I’m, uh, very excited to dig into your rich history of marketing.So- Thanks, Mark.Great to be on.I appreciate you in- inviting me.Yeah.Well, thanks for being here.Maybe, maybe just to kinda start off, if you could help us take the audience through your journey as a marketer.Sure.Um, well, really it startedI, I’m, uh, one of 5 kids, 4th of 5, and, uh, always been interested in sort of human behavior and family dynamics and things like that.Um, when I went to college, I went to Amherst College in Massachusetts, majored in psychology, and that was just the desire to pursue that interest and, and sort of the intrigue in w- you know, behavior, why people make decisions they do, how whether their place in a family or their place in a community impacts how they think and how they behave.And so, just got interested in human behavior and pursued that in college.And so when I left college, it seemed like, uhAnd I, and I, you know, I’ve always been able to communicate pretty well, uh, being pretty extroverted, so I went into sales and thought that that would be a good way toAnd I’d had a couple summer jobs in sales, which had done- gone pretty well.So, uh, that was a logical sort of step for me.Uh, went to Xerox, which we can talk more about later, but a wonderful experience.Learned a ton from there.But realized that while being on the front lines delivering a final product to a customer, um, I, I, I l- I thought maybe that being more strategic behind the scenes of what’s the right product to bring to market?Mm-hmm.How would you communicate what that product delivers to the audience that’s being targeted that might be most effective?And so I got interested by what Xerox was bringing out and why, and maybe it wasn’t being done the way I thought it could’ve been done best.And so I started thinking about more strategy behind the scenes than sort of being on the front lines.And so went back and got my MBA at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management, which was an amazing experience also.Um, and then knew that I really wanted to dive into marketing, and I got some amazing, um, uh, grassroots, ground level experience at Unilever, one of the amazing worldwide companies, or world-class companies, and what does it mean to manage a brand.And then things took off from there, and I’ve had a, a career that’s, that’s included lots of franchising experience, uh, which we’ll talk about today.Yeah.And, um, packaged goods experience and, um, you know, working with private equity-owned businesses, but all focused on, uh, the, the root of understanding what the customer’s wants and needs are, and then how can we as a brand or a company best deliver a solution to serve that need.Yeah.Well, I’m excited to dig into this, ’cause I do think that, uh, you’re gonna give the audience a very unique perspective of just, you know, what it takes to be successful here.But I mean, working with some of those, those very big brands early on, um, what did, what did that chapter teach you about, like, people and communications, like, leadership?How’d that help you set your, like, leadership style?Yeah.first off, I, I do think that, um, a big part of leadership is communication.And one of the things that I learned right from my first job at Xerox was, you know, so many salespeople, I think, lead with talking and this is what I can offer you and this is what I have, and whether they’re being incentivized to promote a certain product or they just wanna share what I can give you.And the root of good communication is good listening.And so I got really good, starting with Xerox, at actively listening of, “Tell me about your business.What is it that you need?How does the flow go?How many clients do you have?How many”You know, for instance, in copiers, “How many copies do you make a month?”Trying to understand the root of their business and what their dynamics were and how they operated and were they growing or shrinking orSo when I, when I, when you do that, you ultimately, when you’re selling, you’re actually not selling.You’re, um, you’re sort of being consultative.You’re saying, “I have a solution for you.I understand that what you do is this and what you’re looking for is that.Here’s something that I think will really serve that need and be a good solution for you, but here’s a couple of options you can consider.”Mm-hmm.”And this is why I think either one of these might be a good option for you.”So I think it, for, for my experience, and, and it’s very rudimentary experience, it was from Xerox, listening well, asking communications to understand what the customer’s wants and needs were, and then figuring out if I could provide a solution, uh, that would serve that.And then the other thing that I learned at Xerox was just how to be persuasive in selling.So part of that was the active listening, but part of that was just how could I make sure that, you know, if they’re talking to 3 or 4 Mm-hmmcopier companies, how can I make sure that, that our product and Xerox stood out?And part of that was me.How can I make a connection with that person, a human connection?And part of that was why Xerox, not just product, but service, could be there for them when they needed it.So- Yeahso all that was just understanding the customer needs, and that carried through to business school, where I, where I worked with a lot of people and, and teams.It was, uh, Kellogg was very team-oriented, and so that taught me how to be a good contributor, but also how to lead teams.And then when I got into Unilever, that began to give me some more experience managing people, communicating clearly, building expectations that were clear, communicating the vision and the strategy.So those were some of the early days ofWhat I learned in those first few jobs and how I carried that forward.Very interesting that you started out in sales.And I think that, uh, you know, what I’ve seen is some of the best marketers are the best salespeople, and they don’t really- they’re not salespeople like, “I’m gonna make 50 phone calls today.”They just know how to sell their idea.How important do you think it is maybe for s- a, a marketer or brander to have some sales experience?Mark, I’m glad you say that because n- I don’t get that question a ton.I, I think that obviously selling as a function and marketing as a function have to work together in concert.So one, one example of that is at Ready Pac, uh, Ready Pac Produce.I was the head of marketing there.Uh, this was a company that was one of the pioneers in bagging lettuce, so fresh cut lettuce- Mm-hmmfruits, and vegetables.And weThe company was really operationally driven, very sales driven, but not very marketing driven, and hadn’t really sort of communicated its niche very well.And without making this story too long, the founder wasn’t really a big believer in marketing, and he and I had a good relationship.And so, um, the, the major competitors were big into iceberg lettuce and romaine lettuce, the things that you can put in one of those- Mm-hmmkinda like a, a, a dryer or w- a washer-dryer, dryer.Yeah.Centrifugal, you know, beats it up, but it- but if you’re iceberg and romaine, that doesn’t reallyIt’s not a problem.You can dry it pretty well.He didn’t, the founder of Ready Pac had invested in these drying tunnels that were very good.It was a European technology that we’re very good at, um, at, uh, drying delicate leafy greens like spinach and spring mixes- Yeahand arugulas.And, uh, and we had unique packaging that could, it was breathable, and it was gas-filled, nitrogen-filled and soBut we’d never told the story about why w- where we thought the market was going was more toward delicate leafy greens that are more restaurant quality salads and better for you- Mm-hmmthan iceberg and romaine.So I went into him, and my boss was the president and c- CEO, and I went in to pitch the founder and CEO this idea that it’s time to invest in consumer marketing, to tell people why we’re the best in this premium segment of delicate leafy greens, where that’s the future of this category.And so both consumer messaging and telling the trade, the retailers, that, “By the way, all your margins are gonna in 5 years come from this segment, so you better get, get partnering with us so that we can help you grow and increase your market in this category.”Long story short, the, the founder said, “Let’s do it.”We increased consumer marketing by, I think, 50% over several years.Wow.That started a growth trend in sales that lasted for the 5 years I stayed with the company and beyond that and really kind of put the company on the map as carving out its, its differentiation and its niche in these what is now everyone just, you know, gravitates toward those, those restaurant quality salads- Mm-hmmand the delicate leafy greens.And r- and Ready Pac in that time kind of put it on the map, and we ended up being, even though we are a smaller business, the partner of choice for category management because we understood that that’s where the segment was going, and we were- Wowthe visionaries of the category.So back to persuasive selling and how to communicate.Selling internally, whether you’re a marketer or not, is really important, and if you can communicate your ideas with conviction and put some data behind it and put some vision behind it, great things can happen.Yeah.You know, as I was doing research on you, Bill, um, I saw a few times throughout your career that, uh, you, you have to convince, and I think we all have seen this, is convince, like, clients or internal stakeholders that marketing is not necessarily a cost center.Mm-hmm.It could be a huge revenue generator, and that was a great example of how you turned marketing from a, maybe a cost center, uh, to a big revenue generator.Mm-hmm.Like h- what isLike, how do you do that?Like, how do you w- today, when you go in and you take over a fractional CMO role, like, what is that conversation like?I think it starts with, um, making sure people understand that the, umWell, 2 things.One is it starts with, um, having a well-defined brand that has a story to tell.Um, so one of the things I do as a fractional CMO and I’ve done throughout my career is make sure that it’s really clear that, that your brand is, doesn’t just say what you do, it’s what you do that’s different that really matters.Hmm.So making sure the differentiation is clear, because if, if that’s not the case, if all you’re doing is saying, “I offer this,” there’s a thousand people that offer that.But if we offer this, and these are the things that make us unique, or we offer it in this way, or we, we offer these particular things within this area of service or product, that’s what stands out.So making sure, because if, if people think they’re a me too product- Mm-hmmwho wants to spend money on marketing if you’re just gonna tell people you’re one of 100 in that market that does that?But if you’ve got a story to tell that says, you know, “We’re the best.”I’ve worked in, you know, food products.Like let’s take the example of Ready Pac or when I was at Unilever, I was working spreads.I was the, the, the brand leader was Country Crock.Mm-hmm.What is it that makes that brand different than the others?And then make sure that that’s clear within the branding, within the marketing.And then once you have a story to tell, talking to like the owner of Ready Pac or other business owners to say, “We need to get this message out.”Because if we’re stagnating in sales, it’s not because we’re not making good products probably, it’s not because our salespeople are weak necessarily, although maybe there’s a- Mmneed for improvement there.It’s that maybe people don’t know who we are, what we do, and what makes us different.And if we did more of that, well then maybe we can unlock this, uh, get past this impasse, unlock the opportunity to start growing.’Cause when you put really good products with clear ref- differentiation, with a clear message, with good salespeople, and sales and marketing are going to market with solidarity and, and unification, man, youIt’s a hard train to stop.Hmm.So it starts with branding, it goes to differentiation, and then it’s making sure that if, if our goals aren’t being met, if our goals are being met and you don’t need marketing to be a major driver, well then, you know, I’ll support any way I can.But if market, if you need to drive accelerated growth, which most companies do, marketing can be and should be one of the major engines to drive the growth.Yeah.Well, it’s interesting ’cause y- you’ve worked in an executive marketing role for, you know, Baskin-Robbins and Dipping Dots, uh, all the way to Chem-Dry and 1-800 WATER DAMAGE, right?Yeah.What, um, what do you think makes a brand memorable regardless of like the industry?So one of, one of the things certainly is what is it that makes it unique and different and differentiated?The second thing is an emotional connection.When I got to be the head of marketing for Chem-Dry, it was a 45-year-old brand, market leader, highly, highly fragmented in that the, the tagline was, “Drier, cleaner, healthier.”And honestly, every franchisee would focus on their own version of that.Drier, dries faster.Cleaner, you know, the carbonated bubbles get deeper and lift the dirt up.Healthier, we use a green certified solution.But every single one of the thousand franchisees had their own version of the brand.Well, we both know that if your brand’s not getting a clear message and you’re communicating different things to the, in the same market, no one quite knows what you stand for.So in that particular instance, we went back to the customer, and we did a, a quantitative study, um, of 2,000 plus people, and figured out what it was that was important.And what was interesting was, yes, they want you to get the tough stains out.Yes, they want you to deep clean.But what was interesting was they really cared about having a healthy home.My kids are climbing on that carpet.Mm-hmm.My dog is- Hmmeating food off that carpet or lying on that carpet.I’m lying down on the carpet.I want the peace of mind when I go to sleep at night to know that I’ve got a healthy home, and the healthy home starts with places like your floors.And so we built an entire campaign around that, that has an emotional connection.Get your stains out.Oh, it’s not really that exciting.But we’re helping you have the peace of mind knowing that you’re keeping a healthy home.That’s emotional to homeowners, to parents with their kids and dogs.So finding, and you gotta look hard sometimes, finding that emotional connection is really important.Another one was 1-800 WATER DAMAGE, a property restoration company.I mean, property restoration’s really important.If you have a fire or a water damage- Mm-hmmwhatever it might be, that’s a big deal.But it c- you can focus on the structural, we’re gonna rebuild your home and put it back to the way it was, or we help restore what matters most, which is your family and the unit that- Mmwhere you live and, you know, your, your, um, the pace of your life and the normalcy of your life and supporting your family.So not so much about the structure and the services, but more about your home is your place of comfort.It’s where your kids are.It’s where you raise your family.That’s emotional.So trying to find the emotional core of a brand and a message and then bring that through in the marketing and make sure it threads through all the marketing is really, to me, what separates good brands or good marketing- Yeahfrom great marketing, which is find the emotional connection, and that c- can create some real brand loyalty.Yeah.Well, I mean, beyond even the brand and the campaigns that, uh, you’ve probably ran for some of theseBig companies and big franchisees, like who, um, like, you know, working with a franchise that has maybe 1,000 franchisees.Like, how do you go in and build, like, a scalable marketing platform where everything is unified across one of those?I’ll go back to, it’s a great question, and it’s hard to do, particularly as a, as a brand gets to that kind of size.I’ll give you the example of Chem-Dry, ’cause it’s such a good network and brand and a great example.When we are trying to refresh this 0 45-year-old brand that had, um, strong market connection, great franchisees and operators, but this fractured, fragmented message where everyone had their own version of the brand.Mm-hmm.Um, it, you know, you can get into a lot of emotional conversations around what do I think Chem-Dry stands for?What do you think Chem-Dry stands for?But the most important thing is what do consumers care about.So we used that research I mentioned as the foundation, so it wasn’t subjective.It wasn’t what I think.It’s what we heard from 2,000 consumers across the country who either are buying or are not buying but could be buying Chem-Dry services.And we used that as the foundation to come up with a message that was related to the healthy home that, backed by research, communicated and built through an, an outside a- ad agency with a really clear, strong, compelling new look, and that we brought through the vans and all the marketing.And we communicated that at the annual franchise convention to franchisees.You have to get people sort of galvanized around that because in company-owned stores, you can dictate what’s gonna happen.In franchise businesses, it is a, it is a partnership between franchisor and franchisee, and it is not pushing.It is collaborating, and it is about getting there together.And so we brought them on the journey of this is what we learned.This is what we, you know, think the big nugget insight was.This is what we did in the creative exercise.This is what that looks like, and now we’re all gonna get behind this new message about- Mmthe healthy home.And, and we’re gonna all be unified.And, and what’s gonna happen is your marketing dollars are gonna work harder for you ’cause everyone’s gonna be saying the same thing, not I’m saying something different than Joe down the street.So that, the power of that, the power of the consumer data that wasn’t refutable, the power of showing them and bringing them along in the journey and gaining their trust and gaining their buy-in and gaining their confidence, suddenly we did that, and same store, same unit sales started growing, and the average transaction size started growing because people f- felt more confident not only selling the core services but selling the upgraded services that offered an even healthier optionlike s- sanitizing and protecting your carpets and all those things that were the, the next levels up in the health spectrum.So, so that, to me, that’s a great example of, um, certainly the franchise model is different than others, but the importance of using good research that’s k- kind of irrefutable, using that as the foundation for insights, building trust and confidence in that plan, and then getting everyone behind it as a groundswell of excitement and energy at an event like a annual franchise convention, and that became kind of the launching pad for big things for the brand.Yeah.Well, you, you know, you mentioned, uh, like agency partner- Mm-hmmin that, and, uh, there’s a lot of, uh, agency owners and, you know, creatives or solopreneurs and creative that, uh, listen to the show.And maybe just coming from your vantage point as a CMO of one of these large brands, you’ve worked with many, many agencies.Like, what is the most important thing, like, to selecting the right agency that you’re gonna work with in this huge endeavor that you’re staking your whole reputation on?Yeah, that’s a really good question.I have worked with dozens of agencies a- and, and truthfully still have really good relationships with a number of them that as a fractional CMO I bring into engagements I have because I’ve worked with them, I’ve seen them perform, and I have a lot of faith and confidence in their ability to execute.What makes the really good agencies, in my opinion, stand out areI mean, at the end of the day, it is about, uh, performance, but it’s, it starts with understanding what the KPIs and the goals are of how they’re gonna be measured.So if they’re not asking you, you know, “What does success look like in our working with you?”in the, in the vetting process, then they probably aren’t thinking the right way.Mm-hmm.A lot of people can, again, provide the services at any agency, whether it’s PR, digital, um, creative, whatever it might be.Um, but they need to know how they’re gonna be judged and what success looks like.So it starts with a conversation, and typically, if they ask it, they’re on the right track.What does success look like?What are the KPIs, and how will we be measured to make sure that we’re hitting, if not really exceeding, those goals?So that’s one is a clear understanding of that and making sure that those are truly measurable.If we say KPRs or ROI, okay, but we don’t haveWe can generate leads.We don’t know what converts.So we need you to give us that data.You know what?That’s fair.Thank you for asking for that.We will give you that data.We’ll calculate the ROI and let you know what it is so that you know whether you’re hitting it or not.So it, it’s a 2way street, not a one-way street.Yeah.Um, the second thing is good, clear communication and regular communication.It seems kind of obvious, but, um, you know, touching base, whether it’s weekly for a while to get going, and then bi-weekly, and then monthly, the communication of, um, how are things going, reporting back monthly on how the last month’s, you know, how we did against our KPIs, what are we gonna change, what new is going on in the business?What’s the seasonality difference now going into June as opposed to when we last had our conversation going into May?’Cause we’re shifting seasons now.It’s getting warmer.Parts of the country, the weather shifts, if that affects that particular brand or industry.So always thinking, staying in touch, always thinking about how we’re going to sort of get smarter, get better.Did this program work?Did this not work?One company I was a fractional CMO with, we ran limited time offers recently, and, um, it was a new, new idea.They hadn’t really done this much in an organized way in the past, and, uh, and it ended up being, uh, very successful.Um, and we gotIt was a portfolio company.They had, you know, 8 different brands, 4 or 5 of which did, uh, the LTO, and, uh, and it was really successful.So then weActually, 2 or 3 first did it, and then we rolled it out to more companies, and it became a bigger impact.So, um, always trying something new, always measuring results and using data to sort of see whether you’re hitting your mark, and then communicating well.All those things I think are part of a good partner-agency relationship or client-agency relationship.Mm-hmm.But those are the things that I think if the client goes in thinking those thoughts and with the mindset of, how will we measure success?We wanna have open communication all the time.We wanna be trying new things and testing new things, and if they don’t work, we’ll try new things.That kind of mindset tells me that they’re constantly thinking about- Mm-hmmthe business and how to get better.Yeah.So those are key success factors.And, and bringing you new ideas and, uh, suggestions, too.And I think it all comes down to, like, trust is what, uh, what I’ve seen.That’s how you build trust with anybody, and I mean, that’s a, that lesson was gold for people listening to the show.So really appreciate you sharing that.Yeah.How about, like, I guess, you know, when you know an agency relationship is not working?Like, what, what have youI’m sure you’ve seen some failures over the years.Uh, was there, was there one specific thing that typically causes that?Um, it, it is often the breakdown of those things that I mentioned.Yeah.The breakdown of communication, the lack of understanding of the expectations, um, them being more focused.I mean, truthfully, I can think of a few times in the last 5 or 7 years where the agency was more focused on the costs of the hours that their team was putting in than the success of the relationship and their services.When they start looking at, “Well, we can’t rule that out,” or, “We can’t give youSo hey, we’ve got a new, new need that just rose up.”Hmm.”We gotta take advantage of this.””You know what?We’re kind of, we’re kinda maxing out on our hours right now.Um, that’s gonna be an additional X cost because we’re just tapped out for the month.”Now, on the one hand, totally understand that, you know, you have toYou, they’re managing a business.Yeah.Agencies are just like, just like companies are.So that’s understandable, but you have to t- look at the long game, I think.If the, if the relationship is important enough to you, that they need to show, they need to see, the client needs to see that your guts get in the game and that you’re gonna go above and beyond for this need that they have and not look at hours and dollars that are going out, but make sure that you can seize the moment without pointing out that they’re doing that, but just doing it as the right thing to do and it’s the right thing to invest in that relationship, that’s gonna come back.And it d- goes well, and they can deliver on that, that comes back in spades.Yeah.And so when they’re looking at their bottom line, which they have to do, and not thinking about the lifetime value of a client- Mm-hmmjust like, you know, companies think about the lifetime value of a customer.You know, if I don’t want someone buying once, I want someone buying twice a year for the next 30 years.Mm-hmm.What’s the value of that customer or someone who tries once and leaves?What’s the value of a client that comes and joins you for a year or one that stays for 10?How much was the cost of that additional work that you did in the, in the, in the, in the context of a 10-year relationship versus a one-year relationship?It’s very different.So you have to look at it, I think, in the long range of if your goals are to establish really successful partnerships, knowing that that success will typically translateInto referrals and successes with other people that they say, “These guys did a great job,” and they always step up in the, in the tight moments, I mean, your reputation- Mmis everything, as you know well.Yeah.You know, um, I mean, that’s interesting, and you talk about lifetime value.Like, as you look back, like, you’ve probably taken agencies from company to company to company as you’ve moved, uh, into different opportunities, better opportunities.What, like, uh, what is the typical timeframe of, like, you would hang on to an agency relationship?Or have you had some that have been the whole 35 years, uh- Yeah, great question.I, I have some that have been, uh, certainly more than a decade.Um, I’ve gotten smarter and better at building good relationships personally with agency owners and agency people, and the higher you go up in companies, the more decision-making authority you have, and accountability you have for making sure that the real agency relationship is strong and that they’re performing.Because when I was, um, you know, senior VP of marketing at BELFOR for several years and I was overseeing 12 different home services franchise brands, we had to have partners that could perform.And we were constantly bringing in partners that had performed well in other brands and extending those, getting rid of underperforming agencies, and, and sometimes, uh, at some points trying new agencies, but typically it was a matter of giving more to the companies that had proven themselves.So y- you have toWhen you’re accountable for making sure that they’re, the, the agency is delivering and the franchisees or the business are benefiting, you don’t really have the luxury of time.So I’m, I am one to be much more forthright in saying, “This isn’t working,” if this is the case, “and we have a horizon of X here to, to, to get this right.If not, we’re gonna have to have a conversation and consider our options.”So being honest, being clear, and then figuring out, you know, how to, um, get to a partnership whether it’s working or not working quickly.Yeah.What’s a, uh, over the years, what’s a leadership lesson maybe that you’ve had to learn the hard way?So one leadership lesson was the first time I stepped from managing, you know, a small team, one or 2 people, to managing a larger team.I was more focused on, um, being accepted into that role, more, more focused on, uh, being respected for my opinions, more interested in being sort of not liked from a personality standpoint, but thought that I was fitting with the, with the business.And the truth of the matter is that that’s just a recipe for, for disaster- Mm-hmmor for not succeeding.Because at the end of the day, you’re gonna get acceptance, you’re gonna gain respect, people are gonna appreciate your contributions if you’re focused on, you know, in that posi- in that m- situation, are you doing the right things for the brand?Is the brand improving?Are franchisees seeing the fruits of your labors, and are they seeing success, and are they seeing some improvements in their sales or in their margins or whatever it might be, or new products that are coming out?So the work, the strategy, the thinking, the execution, and the results will lead, and the other things will follow, but when you’re focused on being accepted from a human standpoint, you’re, you’re just looking at the wrong things and focused on the wrong things.And I realized that and, you know, and pivoted, uh, from then on.I just, I, I learned it on that job, but I took that with me for all my other jobs about being a good communicator, about building expectations, getting to know my team personally, so I knew what their goals and motivations were, but doing, being really clear on what the goals were, how I was gonna judge their success, and that it was ultimately our success, and always being willing to take the pain if the things didn’t work, but make sure that we kept going forward together.The other thing I would say from a leadership standpoint is, and, and as a manager standpoint, is, um, I was always, I’ve always been focused on giving feedback in the moment.You know, if you’re, if you, if you’re in a meeting and you say something great, I wanna tell you right after the meeting, “That was great, Mark.It was a great comment, and it was the right time.”Or if I think you’ve got great comments but you’re holding back, I’d say, “Mark, you’ve got so much great insights and knowledge.I want you to be more vocal in those meetings, ’cause you got so much to say.”So coaching in the moment rather than waiting for, you know, an annual, semi-annual performance reviews is a much better way to build trust, to build a relationship, and be a better leader and a better manager.Man, that’s a great lesson too, Bill.What, uh, you know, I guess, you know, you’ve learned a ton from, like, the franchises.You have to work with not just the internal stakeholders, franchisees, but, you know, all their customers too as you’re marketing, I guess, and that probably comes with a lot of, uh, positives and challenges too, but I guess w- how did that set you up to, like, learn the resilience and what it would take to become, like, even an entrepreneur?Yeah.first off, one of the things, when I started, um, my career in franchising, um, I quickly learned, and I learned through people that were smarter and more experienced than me in franchising, that the only way to think about the franchise business model is that your main customer is your franchisee.And if you think that way and you treat your, your franchisees as your customer, and that they’re the main customer, and then they ultimately have end customers too, but if you think about that, it changes your whole philosophy toward franchising and who you’re trying to serve.Our goal has always been, my goal has always been making sure the franchisees have the tools, the knowledge, um, the products and services, the support they need, operational, sales, marketing, um, to deliver an amazing experience or product to their, to their end customer.If we give them all that they need, then the end experience, that success takes care of itself.But if we think about, or if one thinks about the end customer and doesn’t realize that the first customer and most important customer is the franchisee, and serving them serves the end customer, then you sort of, you, you don’t get there in a linear path, or you don’t get there as quickly.And maybe you don’t get there at all.So that was a really good lesson that I learned from others, and I learned quickly, and I think the greatest successes, some of the greatest successes I’ve had in my career have been in franchising, seeing and, and being a part, not being a part of, but seeing and witnessing their success.Yeah.Um, because when franchisees are putting their blood, sweat, and, and financial investments and income into something, and they realize their version of the American dream, a small part of that and, and witnessing that is a pretty special thing, and that’s what, you know, keeps, um, franchising close to my heart, is that, um, is that ability to see people have success beyond their wildest dreams or meet their goals and have a, a, a wonderful experience runninga business and then selling it and being set up for retirement and happiness, so.Yeah.Um, that’s, those are some of the insights I’ve learned through franchising and what it means to think about customers in the right context.You know, um, I mean, I meetI love doing this show, ’cause I get to meet so many amazing people, but, you know, and not a but, thinking of, like, you, you know, we probably would’ve never met had we not met on the show, but I’m, I’m just shocked of the level of talent and experience that’s in Nashville all the time, you know?And, uh, just the people that I’m, I’m so glad to get to know now.What, with all your experience and all the big things you’ve done, what got you to Nashville?That’s a good question.So I, um, I grew up in the Northeast.I don’t have the, the appropriate native Nashville twang.Uh, but I, but I do have some of the vernacular, um, just, that just happened organically, ’cause when you’re here for a while, it just comes to you.Um, and my, like after getting married, my wife and I moved to California for a few years.That was where some of the Baskin-Robbins experience came from, and the Ready Pac Produce experience came.Um, but my wife finished up her PhD and went on the tenure track job search market, and, um, was looking at some different options, and Vanderbilt made an offer to her.And we, I didn’t know much about the South, let alone about Nashville.This was 25 years ago.As you and I both know, it was a sleepier- Mm-hmmquieter town, not the destination it is.Downtown was, you know, older honky-tonks and some, some clothes shops and things like that.But the people, what, what attracted us here was incredibly friendly people, wonderful, welcoming communities of people that just put their arms around you and, um, and just a warmth that I think was really comfortable.And, and also it looked as though, uh, you know, there was, you know, b- between the music and other th- and sports, there was a lot of fun to be had in town, so we could- Mm-hmmwe could be here, raise a family, wonderful parks.But it was the sense of neighborliness that I think was the biggest draw, and it’s been that in spades.And quite honestly, as I’ve said many, to many people, we’ve never looked back.And we got here and thought, “Well, you know, if it doesn’t work out, we can always pivot,” and that was a thought before we came and never a thought again since we’ve been here for 25 years.I love it.It’s just, it, I love, you know, it’s become a food town, as we all know.Music is amazing, and I love seeing live music.So what brought us here was that, but what keeps us here is the community, uh, our kids.We have 2 daughters, grown daughters, and we love coming, they love coming home.We love the community in Nashville and all the things that it offers.Yeah.Hmm.That’s amazing.WhatSo you pivoted.Now you’re doing fractional CMO work for lots of differentI think we talked about private equity- Yeahand, you know, just startup businesses.Like, how, tell us a little bit about what you’re, what you’re doing now, what it, what it means to be a fractional CMO, like, how someone would leave either the agency world or the business world to get into this role.So first, the reason I did it was because I, I wantedMore control over my time, more ability to, you know, to, um, have a lifestyle that sort of fit my schedule rather than sche- schedule driving my, my sort of availability of time.Um, and maybe picking and choosing the people, the projects, the work, the businesses and brands I worked on, and also being able to have a broader impact on more companies than just one company.Um, so over the past several years as I’ve been a fractional CMO, the thing that IThe way I think about it for anyone considering it is, you know, you can, you can hire someone at a manager director level and sink some money in there, or you can hire someone with 35 years of experience who’s navigated all the waters and all the wars, who’s got some great, who’s got some great wins and some failures that they’ve learned a ton from and can bring that in and hit the ground running immediately.Pretty much, you know- Mm-hmm0 ramp-up to learn the business because I’ve been in so many different types of businesses, um, that can have an immediate impact.And a lot of times businesses are not looking to wait 3 to 6 months while someone learns the business at a lower level before they can actually have an impact on it.Yeah.I wanna have an impact now.I wanna see growth.I wanna make sure I know whether we’ve got the right partners.I wannaIf we’re buying more businesses and aggregating, for instance, with a private equity-based roll-up, which I’ve worked in several of, if we’re doing that, we need someone immediately to make sure that we’re integrating those, that we’ve got a good platform with, you know, SEO and pay-per-click and proper review management, things that are basic foundational things that if you don’t have that, and they’re lumpy and they’re not working well, then you haven’t got a platform at all.Because, you know, in businesses like that, they’re always adding more brands on and thinking about, “How do we build the platform so that the next buyer looks at our business and says, ‘Great.The chassis, the foundation has been built.We can add more on there and take this to the next level and have a really good exit in several years.'” So, um, you know, I, I, I think about th- the immediacy of the impact, the, um, having, you know, understanding how to communicate effectively with ownership, with executive management, and right down to that franchisee or local operator level.I worked, I worked as much with marketing coordinators in some businesses- Wowas anyone else because they’re the ones who get things done locally in that local company.Yeah.So if I have to work with them, I love that because it’s back to the human connection.If I can build a partnership with them where I can say, “This is what the strategy is.This is what our plans are.I wanna help you execute this and make sure it hits a home run locally.Let’s get this done.”You have to hit it across all those, and typically a more junior person doesn’t know how to, how to navigate those tiers and can’t get things done as quickly.So those are some of the things that both- Yeahhow I think about fractional work, but also how I operate that I think in the right circumstances, whether y- you need more bandwidth, our team is maxed out, come in and help us out, or we don’t have anyone in marketing, can you come in and lead the ship until we have a team?Either of those and many other examples are ones where a fractional CMO is perfectly, um, placed at, at that time.Yeah.Well, after, uh, at this stage in your like, what, uh, what still excites you about, you know, just continuing to build and advise andI mean, you seem like you’re a very driven person.Uh, what, what is it about this work that keeps you going?Yeah.I mean, to me it, it’s, it al- always has and always will come down to picking people, honestly, that I wanna work with.Um, so part of it is that do, do I connect with you- Mm-hmmand what you’re trying to accomplish and where you’re trying to go, number one.Number 2, do I genuinely believe that with my skillset and experience I can help you?If I can’t, it doesn’t make sense for either of us for us to start this journey.But if I can, and I start to get excited about the person and the work that I believe that I can really help you get to your meeting your goals, those are 2 big, uh, pins to knock down.And then the other thing that I look for, and, and I can find it in different ways, um, is something that I can really feel genuinely in my heart good about.So ice cream, as an example.I’ve worked in several fro- Who doesn’t like ice cream, huh?frozen treat concepts.Baskin-Robbins, Dippin’ Dots, and Tastee-Lye.I’ve worked on 3.How do you not get excited about that?So you’re helping people create a bright spot in their day.If you’re thinking about, um, a home service, you’re helping protect their home.You’re helping themIn the, in the case of property damage restoration, you’re helping them restore their home and their family’s wellbeing in a safe place.I can feel great about that.In the case of, in the case of Ready Pac, delivering healthy foods to people in the form of salads and fruit and vegetables.In the case of Chem-Dry, helping people maintain a healthy home so they can sleep well at night.There’s a lot of examples.Another brand, company I’ve worked with that’s a wonderful group, owned by a family, is the Huntington Learning Center, which is a, um, tutoring and test prep organization where I was, I worked with them as a fractional CMO for, uh, about a year and a half.And wonderful people, but the mission is very clearly and very, you know, importantly helping kids get the best education possible.How can you not get excited about being a part of that mission and that, um, execution to be able to enable franchisees in that system to deliver that and be a part of their community and family success?I mean, when you’re going through that, every family has their concerns about levels of, of performance and wanting to get into the right college, and that’sAnd I’ve had that twice with our 2 girls.Hmm.Being able to help them to get their best, do their best, get their best scores, get into college, and the reward and the feeling of pride of helping them on that journey- Yeahis powerful.So that’s an easier one, but whate- whatever it is, finding brands that real- and businesses that really are doing something important, that inspires me, and that really excites me.And I can find it in different ways.Even if it’s not a sexy category, it can be a really important one for people’s livelihoods and wellbeing.Wow.Well, as we start to, like, wrap up, is there anything, Bill, that I didn’t ask you that you think might be, uh, valuable to the audience or maybe that you wanna share?No, thisI mean, you s- your questions have been fantastic and honestly covered a really wide swath.Um, you know, the one thing I would say, I, I mentioned, uh, you know, the importance of differentiation and the importance of, um, finding the emotional connection to a brand or business.The other thing I would say is, and it seems like it’s been forgotten, people talk a lot about data today.Data, it’s a data age, and, um, there’s so much focus on execution, and there’s so much available data, but people aren’t spending enough time going back to the data.If I roll out a program, I wanna look at that to see how it performs.So if it feels to me like people are forward-looking in a good way, always thinking about the next thing, but not looking at the same time about evaluating performance and success to see whether it’s working or not.This is true of small business owners and in some cases bigger businesses.Yeah.They’re always driving to the next initiative without always making sure they’re, have, they have one eye looking forward and one eye evaluating performance and success and seeing if you have to refine, tweak it, shut it down, try something different.We all know that AI can be super helpful in analyzing data.There’s no reason not to do it now- Hmm’cause you don’t need an analyst.You can ha- Your analyst is your, is AI.So, uh, making sure that you’re using the data you have, and you can be very specific with AI, as we know, and not, you know, wide shotgun, but very refined rifle of I wanna understand, here’s the data, I wanna understand what were the key insights and how this performed and whether this happened or this didn’t happen.So if you can, if you can use the data better to guide actions, I think making better research based, consumer research based, and better data based decisions, I think people will, uh, will have better, maybe better success.Yeah, that’s great insights.Well, Bill, thanks for being on the show today, and thanks for sharing all your valuable, like, uh, insights and perspective.Uh, it’s been a great show.Really appreciate you being a part of the Nashville creative community and, um, and the marketing community and all you’re doing.And hopefully, uh, we’ll drop all your information in the show notes, ’cause I know there may be some questions that come afterwards, and hopefully somebody’ll, uh, can reach out to you or us, and we’ll get the questions to you.I appreciate that, Mark.It’s been really a pleasure.Thank you so much for having me.Yeah.Thank you.And, and thank you all for joining us again today.Uh, really appreciate it.If you would, help us by, uh, subscribing, liking, reviewing, and, um, if you, uh, feel extra generous, if you would share this show so that we can get it out to more creatives in Nashville.Until next time, we’ll see you on The Spark.And that’s a wrap on this episode of The Spark from Creative Assembly.Thanks for spending time with us and exploring the minds shaping Nashville’s creative future.If you’re walking away more inspired, connected, 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